5 ms·

TVs don't support displayport, so it makes Linux PCs like the Steam Machine inferior console replacements if you want high refresh rates. A lot of TVs now suppo

by tapoxi 9mo ago

TVs don't support displayport, so it makes Linux PCs like the Steam Machine inferior console replacements if you want high refresh rates. A lot of TVs now support 4K/120hz with VRR, the PS5 and Xbox Series X also support those modes. (Some games support 120, but it's also used to present a 40hz image in a 120hz container to improve input latency for games that can't hit 60 at high graphics quality.)

amlib 9mo ago
Correction, you can get 4K@120hz with HDMI 2.0, but you won't get full chroma 4:4:4, instead 4:2:0 will be forced. In my case I have an htpc running linux and a radeon 6600 connected via hdmi to a 4k @ 120hz capable tv, and honestly, at the sitting distance/tv size and using 2x dpi scaling you just can't tell any chroma sub-sampling is happening. It is of course a ginormous problem when on a desktop setting and even worse if you try using 1x dpi scaling. What you will lose however is the newer forms of VRR, and it may be unstable with lots of dropouts.
krzyk 9mo ago
Do consoles support anything above 60 FPS?
- tyfon 9mo ago
  My PS5 can do 4k/120 hz with VRR support, not sure about the others.
  - RamRodification 9mo ago
    Are there games running at 4k 120hz?
    - maccard 9mo ago
      Full 4k - very few, but lots are running adaptive resolutions at > 2k and at 120hz
    - shantara 9mo ago
      Touryst renders the game at 4K120 or 8k60. In the latter case, the image is subsampled to 4K output.
    - tapoxi 9mo ago
      Call of Duty and Battlefield both run at 4K@120 with dynamic resolution scaling, PSSR or FSR. Most single player games (Spider-Man, God of War, Assassin's Creed etc) will allow a balanced graphics/performance which does 40 in a 120hz refresh.
  - krzyk 9mo ago
    I'm bit puzzled, isn't VRR more for low powered hardware to consume less battery (handhelds like steam deck)? How does it fit hardware that is constantly connected to power? (I assume VRR = Variable Refresh Rate)
    - seanw444 9mo ago
      It reduces screen tearing without adding all the latency that vsync introduces.
    - reisse 9mo ago
      VRR is necessary to avoid tearing or FPS caps (V-sync) when your hardware cannot stably output FPS count matching the screen refresh rate.
    - ThatPlayer 9mo ago
      Variable refresh rate is nice when your refresh rate doesn't match your output. Especially when you're getting into higher refresh rates. So if your display is running at 120hz, but you're only outputting 100hz: you cannot fit 100 frames evenly into 120 frames. 1/6 of your frames will have to be repeats of other frames, and in an inconsistent manner. Usually called judder. Most TVs will not let you set the refresh rate to 100hz. Even if my computer could run a game at 100hz, without VRR, my choices are either lots of judder, or lowering it to 60hz. That's a wide range of possible refresh rates you're missing out on. V-Sync and console games will do this too at 60hz. If you can't reach 60hz, cap the game at 30hz to prevent judder that would come from anything in between 31-59. The Steam Deck actually does not support VRR. Instead the actual display driver does support anything from 40-60hz. This is also sometimes an issue with movies filmed at 24hz on 60hz displays too: https://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/motion/24p https://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/motion/24p
mcv 9mo ago
Why don't TVs support displayport? If HDMI 2.1 support is limited, a TV with displayport sounds like an obvious choice. I thought audio might be the reason, for as far as I can tell, displayport supports that too.
- pqtyw 9mo ago
  I think it's not really an issue for 95-99% of users who uses devices with non open source drivers so there is no incentive for manufacturers to add it?
  - MegaDeKay 9mo ago
    Tell Valve that it isn't an issue. They have built in hardware support for HDMI 2.1 on the new Steam Machine but can't support it in software.
- cogman10 9mo ago
  Legacy is a bitch. It took a long time to move from the old component input over to HDMI. The main thing that drove it was the SD to HD change. You needed HDMI to do 1080p (I believe, IDK that component ever supported that high of a resolution). Moving from HDMI to display port is going to be the same issue. People already have all their favorite HDMI devices plugged in and setup for their TVs. You need a feature that people want which HDMI isn't or can't provide in order to incentivize a switch. For example, perhaps display port could offer something like power delivery. That could allow things like media sticks to be solely powered by the TV eliminating some cable management.
  - MegaDeKay 9mo ago
    The legacy issue is even worse than that. I have a very new Onkyo RZ30 receiver and it is all HDMI with no DisplayPort to be seen. So it is the whole ecosystem including the TV that would need to switch to DP support.
  - simoncion 9mo ago
    > For example, perhaps display port could offer something like power delivery. It already does. A guaranteed minimum of 1.65W at 3.3V is to be provided. Until very recently, HDMI only provided a guaranteed minimum of something like 0.25W at 5V.

by tapoxi 9mo ago

amlib 9mo ago

Correction, you can get 4K@120hz with HDMI 2.0, but you won't get full chroma 4:4:4, instead 4:2:0 will be forced. In my case I have an htpc running linux and a radeon 6600 connected via hdmi to a 4k @ 120hz capable tv, and honestly, at the sitting distance/tv size and using 2x dpi scaling you just can't tell any chroma sub-sampling is happening. It is of course a ginormous problem when on a desktop setting and even worse if you try using 1x dpi scaling. What you will lose however is the newer forms of VRR, and it may be unstable with lots of dropouts.

krzyk 9mo ago

Do consoles support anything above 60 FPS?

tyfon 9mo ago
My PS5 can do 4k/120 hz with VRR support, not sure about the others.
- RamRodification 9mo ago
  Are there games running at 4k 120hz?
  - maccard 9mo ago
    Full 4k - very few, but lots are running adaptive resolutions at > 2k and at 120hz
  - shantara 9mo ago
    Touryst renders the game at 4K120 or 8k60. In the latter case, the image is subsampled to 4K output.
  - tapoxi 9mo ago
    Call of Duty and Battlefield both run at 4K@120 with dynamic resolution scaling, PSSR or FSR. Most single player games (Spider-Man, God of War, Assassin's Creed etc) will allow a balanced graphics/performance which does 40 in a 120hz refresh.
- krzyk 9mo ago
  I'm bit puzzled, isn't VRR more for low powered hardware to consume less battery (handhelds like steam deck)? How does it fit hardware that is constantly connected to power? (I assume VRR = Variable Refresh Rate)
  - seanw444 9mo ago
    It reduces screen tearing without adding all the latency that vsync introduces.
  - reisse 9mo ago
    VRR is necessary to avoid tearing or FPS caps (V-sync) when your hardware cannot stably output FPS count matching the screen refresh rate.
  - ThatPlayer 9mo ago
    Variable refresh rate is nice when your refresh rate doesn't match your output. Especially when you're getting into higher refresh rates. So if your display is running at 120hz, but you're only outputting 100hz: you cannot fit 100 frames evenly into 120 frames. 1/6 of your frames will have to be repeats of other frames, and in an inconsistent manner. Usually called judder. Most TVs will not let you set the refresh rate to 100hz. Even if my computer could run a game at 100hz, without VRR, my choices are either lots of judder, or lowering it to 60hz. That's a wide range of possible refresh rates you're missing out on. V-Sync and console games will do this too at 60hz. If you can't reach 60hz, cap the game at 30hz to prevent judder that would come from anything in between 31-59. The Steam Deck actually does not support VRR. Instead the actual display driver does support anything from 40-60hz. This is also sometimes an issue with movies filmed at 24hz on 60hz displays too: https://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/motion/24p https://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/motion/24p

mcv 9mo ago

Why don't TVs support displayport? If HDMI 2.1 support is limited, a TV with displayport sounds like an obvious choice. I thought audio might be the reason, for as far as I can tell, displayport supports that too.

pqtyw 9mo ago
I think it's not really an issue for 95-99% of users who uses devices with non open source drivers so there is no incentive for manufacturers to add it?
- MegaDeKay 9mo ago
  Tell Valve that it isn't an issue. They have built in hardware support for HDMI 2.1 on the new Steam Machine but can't support it in software.
cogman10 9mo ago
Legacy is a bitch. It took a long time to move from the old component input over to HDMI. The main thing that drove it was the SD to HD change. You needed HDMI to do 1080p (I believe, IDK that component ever supported that high of a resolution). Moving from HDMI to display port is going to be the same issue. People already have all their favorite HDMI devices plugged in and setup for their TVs. You need a feature that people want which HDMI isn't or can't provide in order to incentivize a switch. For example, perhaps display port could offer something like power delivery. That could allow things like media sticks to be solely powered by the TV eliminating some cable management.
- MegaDeKay 9mo ago
  The legacy issue is even worse than that. I have a very new Onkyo RZ30 receiver and it is all HDMI with no DisplayPort to be seen. So it is the whole ecosystem including the TV that would need to switch to DP support.
- simoncion 9mo ago
  > For example, perhaps display port could offer something like power delivery. It already does. A guaranteed minimum of 1.65W at 3.3V is to be provided. Until very recently, HDMI only provided a guaranteed minimum of something like 0.25W at 5V.