4 ms·

Read the comments on her blog too. First is from a woman, and go down. There are people on both sides of the fence, as you'd expect. But the the original comme

Read the comments on her blog too. First is from a woman, and go down. There are people on both sides of the fence, as you'd expect. But the the original commenter was so blindsided in her views about how she thought the OP was blinded in her views, she didn't even stop to smell the irony.

Cushman 14y ago
Could you be a little clearer on what you're hoping I'll take away from those comments? In case it wasn't clear, the gender of commenters isn't that important to me here. There may be people on both sides of the fence, but there aren't two sets of facts. It's "great", if we can apply that word to what should be normal, that some women today haven't had personal experience with sexism, but that doesn't constitute a point of evidence against women who have. Our culture as a whole has some very deep-seated not-so-subtle problems with gender politics. Our industry, with its absurd gender disparity, should be assumed ceteris paribus to be at least that bad, though I'd wager it's a little subtler and a little deeper-seated. We, all of us, are basically good people who really wish we didn't have an actual problem, that there's some benign explanation for the gap. We wish all the blog posts and articles about endemic sexism were overblown from a few freak occurrences, regrettable but not something we need to concern ourselves with discussing or fixing. We should be deeply suspicious of anything which promises to fulfill that wish without evidence.
- zachinglis 14y ago
  Of course. She has had personal experience with sexism. But her argument was also that according to the original .net magazine article; every woman fears being raped all day every day. It was sensationalist. I agree with a lot of what you have to say. She generally doesn't concern herself with posts like these but she felt the need to considering a man (I know you don't care about gender but it's important factor that a man is telling her how she feels) is saying what sexism is to EVERYONE. Name calling EVERY man on it (almost as if saying he knows better.)
  - Cushman 14y ago
    > But her argument was also that according to the original .net magazine article; every woman fears being raped all day every day. I contend that this is a sensationalist statement. The source for this claim, if I understand it, is this: ...our world has a history, spanning thousands of years, of violence as a means to silence and control women. This is simply not the case for men, and never has been. Every woman carries that historical weight with her wherever she goes, whereas very few men even have an understanding of how heavy that weight is. That is simply true, as every African American carries the legacy of chattel slavery anywhere they go. Does this mean every black man is constantly afraid he'll be beaten up and arrested? Of course not. But ignoring that legacy will leave you profoundly confused on the subject of race relations. Because women do fear rape. No, not the way a hyperbolic strawman fears being knocked down, but day by day in little ways the fear of violence becomes another part of your life. That creepy guy on the bus who said you looked pretty? He's probably just a harmless old dude. But then he moved to sit next to you and didn't say anything and you were worried he was going to touch you. So you get off at the next stop even though you aren't home yet, because the last time something like this happened that guy found out where you worked and took the same bus as you for a week... And you know he's probably harmless and you feel like an idiot waiting for the next bus except your best friend was raped at a party and had to get an abortion and never told anyone but you and God, why are you even thinking about that? Why is it so hard for men to just leave you alone? Since we're avoiding generalizations, I will be specific: Every single woman that I have known intimately enough to know such things has such stories. Those who had not been victims of rape themselves, that is. Of course, they don't complain about it, because complaining about it has never, ever helped. Does that mean "every woman fears being raped all day every day"? Stop talking like that. You know what it means. > She generally doesn't concern herself with posts like these but she felt the need to considering a man (I know you don't care about gender but it's important factor that a man is telling her how she feels) is saying what sexism is to EVERYONE. I will charitably grant she mistook his speaking in generalities to be making pronouncements. For example, he says "A group of all men just doesn't seem as welcoming to women," to which she retorts "in general I find that men are in fact, more welcoming". They're plainly speaking past each other; he spoke of a statistical fact, such as "Black men are more likely to be arrested", and she responded with a personal fact, such as "I'm not a criminal." It's obvious why these sorts of general statements are so dangerous, since they're so easy to misinterpret or use for evil (and tacking on some kind of IMHO doesn't help at all). In general, I'd avoid making them in the first place, except there are questions we need them to answer: "Why are so many black men being arrested?" or "Why are so few women entering tech?" So I think I'd be a lot more charitable toward her position if I saw some indication that she got what the original article was actually about: "I'm concerned about the gender gap in tech. I think it's an important thing for us to be talking about." Then we can all work to figure out a way to talk about it that doesn't leave some people feeling unrepresented.
mnicole 14y ago
Personally, it was painful to read that first comment. The attitude that the issue is somehow minor because one hasn't dealt with it in "x amount of years" in the industry is completely moot. These scenarios depend so much on many different factors and tossing it out the window so willingly paints a very broad stroke of ignorance and privilege.
- zachinglis 14y ago
  Oh. She doesn't think it's not important nor does she think it doesn't happen. She thought it was sensationalist. She thought that Faruks comments were incredibly broad themselves. Feeling thay saying that every woman in tech fears rape every day and such were over the top.
  - mnicole 14y ago
    Sorry, I meant the first comment on the story, should have specified that!

Cushman 14y ago

Could you be a little clearer on what you're hoping I'll take away from those comments? In case it wasn't clear, the gender of commenters isn't that important to me here. There may be people on both sides of the fence, but there aren't two sets of facts. It's "great", if we can apply that word to what should be normal, that some women today haven't had personal experience with sexism, but that doesn't constitute a point of evidence against women who have. Our culture as a whole has some very deep-seated not-so-subtle problems with gender politics. Our industry, with its absurd gender disparity, should be assumed ceteris paribus to be at least that bad, though I'd wager it's a little subtler and a little deeper-seated. We, all of us, are basically good people who really wish we didn't have an actual problem, that there's some benign explanation for the gap. We wish all the blog posts and articles about endemic sexism were overblown from a few freak occurrences, regrettable but not something we need to concern ourselves with discussing or fixing. We should be deeply suspicious of anything which promises to fulfill that wish without evidence.

zachinglis 14y ago
Of course. She has had personal experience with sexism. But her argument was also that according to the original .net magazine article; every woman fears being raped all day every day. It was sensationalist. I agree with a lot of what you have to say. She generally doesn't concern herself with posts like these but she felt the need to considering a man (I know you don't care about gender but it's important factor that a man is telling her how she feels) is saying what sexism is to EVERYONE. Name calling EVERY man on it (almost as if saying he knows better.)
- Cushman 14y ago
  > But her argument was also that according to the original .net magazine article; every woman fears being raped all day every day. I contend that this is a sensationalist statement. The source for this claim, if I understand it, is this: ...our world has a history, spanning thousands of years, of violence as a means to silence and control women. This is simply not the case for men, and never has been. Every woman carries that historical weight with her wherever she goes, whereas very few men even have an understanding of how heavy that weight is. That is simply true, as every African American carries the legacy of chattel slavery anywhere they go. Does this mean every black man is constantly afraid he'll be beaten up and arrested? Of course not. But ignoring that legacy will leave you profoundly confused on the subject of race relations. Because women do fear rape. No, not the way a hyperbolic strawman fears being knocked down, but day by day in little ways the fear of violence becomes another part of your life. That creepy guy on the bus who said you looked pretty? He's probably just a harmless old dude. But then he moved to sit next to you and didn't say anything and you were worried he was going to touch you. So you get off at the next stop even though you aren't home yet, because the last time something like this happened that guy found out where you worked and took the same bus as you for a week... And you know he's probably harmless and you feel like an idiot waiting for the next bus except your best friend was raped at a party and had to get an abortion and never told anyone but you and God, why are you even thinking about that? Why is it so hard for men to just leave you alone? Since we're avoiding generalizations, I will be specific: Every single woman that I have known intimately enough to know such things has such stories. Those who had not been victims of rape themselves, that is. Of course, they don't complain about it, because complaining about it has never, ever helped. Does that mean "every woman fears being raped all day every day"? Stop talking like that. You know what it means. > She generally doesn't concern herself with posts like these but she felt the need to considering a man (I know you don't care about gender but it's important factor that a man is telling her how she feels) is saying what sexism is to EVERYONE. I will charitably grant she mistook his speaking in generalities to be making pronouncements. For example, he says "A group of all men just doesn't seem as welcoming to women," to which she retorts "in general I find that men are in fact, more welcoming". They're plainly speaking past each other; he spoke of a statistical fact, such as "Black men are more likely to be arrested", and she responded with a personal fact, such as "I'm not a criminal." It's obvious why these sorts of general statements are so dangerous, since they're so easy to misinterpret or use for evil (and tacking on some kind of IMHO doesn't help at all). In general, I'd avoid making them in the first place, except there are questions we need them to answer: "Why are so many black men being arrested?" or "Why are so few women entering tech?" So I think I'd be a lot more charitable toward her position if I saw some indication that she got what the original article was actually about: "I'm concerned about the gender gap in tech. I think it's an important thing for us to be talking about." Then we can all work to figure out a way to talk about it that doesn't leave some people feeling unrepresented.

mnicole 14y ago

Personally, it was painful to read that first comment. The attitude that the issue is somehow minor because one hasn't dealt with it in "x amount of years" in the industry is completely moot. These scenarios depend so much on many different factors and tossing it out the window so willingly paints a very broad stroke of ignorance and privilege.

zachinglis 14y ago
Oh. She doesn't think it's not important nor does she think it doesn't happen. She thought it was sensationalist. She thought that Faruks comments were incredibly broad themselves. Feeling thay saying that every woman in tech fears rape every day and such were over the top.
- mnicole 14y ago
  Sorry, I meant the first comment on the story, should have specified that!