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I'm really disappointed you decided to use phrases like "Laura The Troll." It's funny. Those who've disagreed with Laura have come down to name calling and suc

I'm really disappointed you decided to use phrases like "Laura The Troll." It's funny. Those who've disagreed with Laura have come down to name calling and such. Faruk's a good guy. But because he worked for Apple means nothing. Absolutely squat. If you judge people's worth on who they've worked for, then that's worrying. It's not who you've worked for - it's what you've done (Modernizr was a good link in this.) I know many Googler's, Appler's who spend a lot of time writing minor code for example. But how does working for Apple and writing Modenizr qualify him to speak about sexism? That's got nothing to do with the topic at hand. Laura's not the only person who's expressed this view. Many people in the comemnts have agreed (and disagreed) I think it doesn't say volumes about the sexist attitudes. It says volumes that people agree with her more. I'm sorry it doesn't fit in your belief box, but that doesn't make it trolling, nor does it make it wrong.

toadburglar 14y ago
What are your thoughts on the rashness of publishing her post, rather than attempting (more than just Twitter) to improve the article. What we could have had is a truly great (and revised) article on the top of HN rather than this troll inducing post and discussion?
- zachinglis 14y ago
  Basically; I copy edited this article once she was done so I'm biased. But I do agree the rashness didn't help. HOWEVER! She was planning on writing something like this for many months. In the long run, I think a calmer article would have helped her but I absolutely agree with what she has to say.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
Cushman 14y ago
I ain't touching the whole argument over form, but this: > Laura's not the only person who's expressed this view. Many people in the comemnts have agreed (and disagreed) I think gets at precisely the point. Your average HN reader, the one who's making these agreeing or disagreeing comments, is probably a cis man who doesn't think of himself as sexist, and understandably doesn't want to think that his industry is sexist either. The criticism here is that a relatively thin article denying sexism is being given more weight and credence than a much more exhaustive article documenting sexism, because 1) it's saying what we want to hear, and 2) its author is a woman, which-- well, I shouldn't need to point out the irony there.
- zachinglis 14y ago
  Read the comments on her blog too. First is from a woman, and go down. There are people on both sides of the fence, as you'd expect. But the the original commenter was so blindsided in her views about how she thought the OP was blinded in her views, she didn't even stop to smell the irony.
  - Cushman 14y ago
    Could you be a little clearer on what you're hoping I'll take away from those comments? In case it wasn't clear, the gender of commenters isn't that important to me here. There may be people on both sides of the fence, but there aren't two sets of facts. It's "great", if we can apply that word to what should be normal, that some women today haven't had personal experience with sexism, but that doesn't constitute a point of evidence against women who have. Our culture as a whole has some very deep-seated not-so-subtle problems with gender politics. Our industry, with its absurd gender disparity, should be assumed ceteris paribus to be at least that bad, though I'd wager it's a little subtler and a little deeper-seated. We, all of us, are basically good people who really wish we didn't have an actual problem, that there's some benign explanation for the gap. We wish all the blog posts and articles about endemic sexism were overblown from a few freak occurrences, regrettable but not something we need to concern ourselves with discussing or fixing. We should be deeply suspicious of anything which promises to fulfill that wish without evidence.
    - zachinglis 14y ago
      Of course. She has had personal experience with sexism. But her argument was also that according to the original .net magazine article; every woman fears being raped all day every day. It was sensationalist. I agree with a lot of what you have to say. She generally doesn't concern herself with posts like these but she felt the need to considering a man (I know you don't care about gender but it's important factor that a man is telling her how she feels) is saying what sexism is to EVERYONE. Name calling EVERY man on it (almost as if saying he knows better.)
      - 14y ago
rada 14y ago
And I am really disappointed that you've comment-bombed all over this discussion for a good long while before disclosing that you are the author's roommate as well as the copy editor.
- zachinglis 14y ago
  One of the first comments I wrote explained I am her flat mate. I am also the original poster of this article. So that in itself shows bias. I have been very vigilante to show that I am both, and that I know both authors.
- ramblerman 14y ago
  Why does that matter? You have an extremely aggressive and dismissive viewpoint when it comes to those who disagree with you. I'm sorry that you feel HN readers are upvoting the wrong things but maybe (just maybe) it's not so bad. The article you are defending used rape 10 times to make an argument about sexism. I think even Rudy Giuliani would think that excessive.
mtoddh 14y ago
But how does working for Apple and writing Modenizr qualify him to speak about sexism? It doesn't - it sounds like an appeal to authority. My guess is that had the roles been reversed, with Faruk as a male arguing how he didn't see sexism, and Laura as a female arguing otherwise, that the whole "but Faruk worked for Apple and wrote Modenizr" line wouldn't give his viewpoints on sexism more credence with the parent poster.

toadburglar 14y ago

What are your thoughts on the rashness of publishing her post, rather than attempting (more than just Twitter) to improve the article. What we could have had is a truly great (and revised) article on the top of HN rather than this troll inducing post and discussion?

zachinglis 14y ago
Basically; I copy edited this article once she was done so I'm biased. But I do agree the rashness didn't help. HOWEVER! She was planning on writing something like this for many months. In the long run, I think a calmer article would have helped her but I absolutely agree with what she has to say.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

Cushman 14y ago

I ain't touching the whole argument over form, but this: > Laura's not the only person who's expressed this view. Many people in the comemnts have agreed (and disagreed) I think gets at precisely the point. Your average HN reader, the one who's making these agreeing or disagreeing comments, is probably a cis man who doesn't think of himself as sexist, and understandably doesn't want to think that his industry is sexist either. The criticism here is that a relatively thin article denying sexism is being given more weight and credence than a much more exhaustive article documenting sexism, because 1) it's saying what we want to hear, and 2) its author is a woman, which-- well, I shouldn't need to point out the irony there.

zachinglis 14y ago
Read the comments on her blog too. First is from a woman, and go down. There are people on both sides of the fence, as you'd expect. But the the original commenter was so blindsided in her views about how she thought the OP was blinded in her views, she didn't even stop to smell the irony.
- Cushman 14y ago
  Could you be a little clearer on what you're hoping I'll take away from those comments? In case it wasn't clear, the gender of commenters isn't that important to me here. There may be people on both sides of the fence, but there aren't two sets of facts. It's "great", if we can apply that word to what should be normal, that some women today haven't had personal experience with sexism, but that doesn't constitute a point of evidence against women who have. Our culture as a whole has some very deep-seated not-so-subtle problems with gender politics. Our industry, with its absurd gender disparity, should be assumed ceteris paribus to be at least that bad, though I'd wager it's a little subtler and a little deeper-seated. We, all of us, are basically good people who really wish we didn't have an actual problem, that there's some benign explanation for the gap. We wish all the blog posts and articles about endemic sexism were overblown from a few freak occurrences, regrettable but not something we need to concern ourselves with discussing or fixing. We should be deeply suspicious of anything which promises to fulfill that wish without evidence.
  - zachinglis 14y ago
    Of course. She has had personal experience with sexism. But her argument was also that according to the original .net magazine article; every woman fears being raped all day every day. It was sensationalist. I agree with a lot of what you have to say. She generally doesn't concern herself with posts like these but she felt the need to considering a man (I know you don't care about gender but it's important factor that a man is telling her how she feels) is saying what sexism is to EVERYONE. Name calling EVERY man on it (almost as if saying he knows better.)
    - 14y ago

rada 14y ago

And I am really disappointed that you've comment-bombed all over this discussion for a good long while before disclosing that you are the author's roommate as well as the copy editor.

zachinglis 14y ago
One of the first comments I wrote explained I am her flat mate. I am also the original poster of this article. So that in itself shows bias. I have been very vigilante to show that I am both, and that I know both authors.
ramblerman 14y ago
Why does that matter? You have an extremely aggressive and dismissive viewpoint when it comes to those who disagree with you. I'm sorry that you feel HN readers are upvoting the wrong things but maybe (just maybe) it's not so bad. The article you are defending used rape 10 times to make an argument about sexism. I think even Rudy Giuliani would think that excessive.

mtoddh 14y ago

But how does working for Apple and writing Modenizr qualify him to speak about sexism? It doesn't - it sounds like an appeal to authority. My guess is that had the roles been reversed, with Faruk as a male arguing how he didn't see sexism, and Laura as a female arguing otherwise, that the whole "but Faruk worked for Apple and wrote Modenizr" line wouldn't give his viewpoints on sexism more credence with the parent poster.