6 ms·

Meanwhile all the phones dropping jack because Apple started it. Official reason is to "waterproof phones"

by p0w3n3d 10mo ago

CharlesW 10mo ago
The official reason was, famously and ridiculously, "courage". Apple further explained that space is at a premium, listed the many things competing for that space, and noted that a large, single-purpose legacy connector no longer made sense. A lot of Apple's strategic choices are driven by products that take 5, 10, or sometimes 20 years to realize. For example, the forthcoming foldable iPhone (and the proving ground for many related decisions, the iPhone Air) was on roadmaps literally a decade before a decision like this reverberates through released products. Putting a high-quality DAC in a dongle wasn't a terrible solution (many phones with analog jacks have poor ones), and today hundreds of headphones¹ courageously have native USB-C support. ¹ https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/products/usb-c-headphones/ci/59912?sort=PRICE_LOW_TO_HIGH https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/products/usb-c-headphones/ci/...
- realusername 10mo ago
  Apple is very late to the foldable phones now, not sure that's the best example
  - CharlesW 10mo ago
    Regardless, the point of mentioning it is that Apple commonly makes decisions that can seem bizarre to people who don't consider systemic and longer-term reasons why they might've been made. Another micro-example of this that comes to mind is Tahoe's mostly-reviled chonky window borders, which along with many other gradual UX changes over years, absolutely foreshadow touchscreen Macbooks.
    - realusername 10mo ago
      They've also been late sometimes and had to change by force their assumptions, the first app store in iOS was cydia and a lot of what we consider modern iOS design was copied over from the jailbreaking community.
  - throw0101c 10mo ago
    > Apple is very late to the foldable phones now, not sure that's the best example “PC guys are not going to just figure this out. They’re not going to just walk in.” — Palm CEO Ed Colligan, 2006, https://www.engadget.com/2006-11-21-palms-ed-colligan-laughs-off-iphone.html https://www.engadget.com/2006-11-21-palms-ed-colligan-laughs... “A wizard is never late, nor is he early, he arrives precisely when he means to.” — Gandalf the Gray :)
    - realusername 10mo ago
      By "late", I mean they are starting to lose market share because of that in some regions, that kind of late.
makeitdouble 10mo ago
The most frustrating part is when Apple dropped the jack we laughed at the "courage" bit, Apple's given reasons where already seen as bullshit, Samsung had their finger pointing moment. And it just went on, Apple weathered the critics, the other makers also dropped it, and at some point there was just nowhere to go for anyone still wanted a 3.5 jack with a decent phone.
- simpaticoder 10mo ago
  I agree the loss of the 3.5mm jack is a short-sighted and poor decision. There is at least one mitigation, which is the ability to recover the jack through a USB-C DAC. Apple sells them for USD10. I have several, in the car and in my backpack. It's not a good solution though. In particular I find the USB-C port gets worn out pretty quickly. Its also easy to lose the dongle and of course it's more complicated to setup. (I'm not sure how to articulate the "it's more complicated" part. Adding the dongle elevates the action of "plug in headphones" from something you can do without attention to something that requires attention, and I don't like that.)
  - hamburglar 10mo ago
    Also, seemingly without exception, the dongle itself is fragile and ends up causing constant crackling after a while.
  - gopher_space 10mo ago
    Get a set of wired headphones without a built-in cord. Then you can use any USB-C to 3.5 male cord like normal.
    - simpaticoder 10mo ago
      You can't use a passive cable for this - there may be a USB-to-audio standard, but it's not widely implemented anymore. You need a DAC.
      - gopher_space 10mo ago
barbazoo 10mo ago
I just don’t know a single real person that still wants to use wired earphones with their phone. To me it’s the same as complaining that an artist only has CDs, not records.
- mjevans 10mo ago
  I want to use the extremely simple and reliable direct interface and inexpensive cheap earphones and patch cables that I can buy in any reasonable electronics store for low markup. They are all passive components. Adding an external sound card introduces variables outside of manufacture control, the quality, latency, and drive power all at the mercy of some random integrator. My phone is easily thick enough to accommodate a 3.5mm port, and it can't be that difficult to waterproof such a jack, which should also make reasonable cleaning easy if it's ever required.
  - amrocha 10mo ago
    That might all be true, but at the same time most people don’t care or prefer wireless earphones.
- subscribed 10mo ago
  Wired headphones have no latency. AptX-LL are rare in the good quality headsets.
  - Sohcahtoa82 10mo ago
    This right here, especially for gaming. When I use my Sony XM5 Bluetooth headphones, the latency is noticeable. Watching videos, the lips don't match the audio. Playing games, I see things before I hear them. It's probably in the ~150-200 ms range for latency. While gaming, I use a different set of wireless headphones that use a proprietary dongle. If they have any latency at all, I don't notice it.
    - barbazoo 10mo ago
      On the phone?
fancyfredbot 10mo ago
It's not the official reason, but also worth noting that many waterproof devices have headphone jacks.
Larrikin 10mo ago
This has been a lie since day one. The Sony Xperia line has been waterproof for over 10 years and continues to have a headphone jack and an SD card slot. That with their minimal Android tweaks is the main reason to even consider their phones.

Meanwhile all the phones dropping jack because Apple started it. Official reason is to "waterproof phones"

by p0w3n3d 10mo ago

Meanwhile all the phones dropping jack because Apple started it. Official reason is to "waterproof phones"

The official reason was, famously and ridiculously, "courage". Apple further explained that space is at a premium, listed the many things competing for that space, and noted that a large, single-purpose legacy connector no longer made sense. A lot of Apple's strategic choices are driven by products that take 5, 10, or sometimes 20 years to realize. For example, the forthcoming foldable iPhone (and the proving ground for many related decisions, the iPhone Air) was on roadmaps literally a decade before a decision like this reverberates through released products. Putting a high-quality DAC in a dongle wasn't a terrible solution (many phones with analog jacks have poor ones), and today hundreds of headphones¹ courageously have native USB-C support. ¹ https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/products/usb-c-headphones/ci/59912?sort=PRICE_LOW_TO_HIGH https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/products/usb-c-headphones/ci/...

realusername 10mo ago
Apple is very late to the foldable phones now, not sure that's the best example
- CharlesW 10mo ago
  Regardless, the point of mentioning it is that Apple commonly makes decisions that can seem bizarre to people who don't consider systemic and longer-term reasons why they might've been made. Another micro-example of this that comes to mind is Tahoe's mostly-reviled chonky window borders, which along with many other gradual UX changes over years, absolutely foreshadow touchscreen Macbooks.
  - realusername 10mo ago
    They've also been late sometimes and had to change by force their assumptions, the first app store in iOS was cydia and a lot of what we consider modern iOS design was copied over from the jailbreaking community.
- throw0101c 10mo ago
  > Apple is very late to the foldable phones now, not sure that's the best example “PC guys are not going to just figure this out. They’re not going to just walk in.” — Palm CEO Ed Colligan, 2006, https://www.engadget.com/2006-11-21-palms-ed-colligan-laughs-off-iphone.html https://www.engadget.com/2006-11-21-palms-ed-colligan-laughs... “A wizard is never late, nor is he early, he arrives precisely when he means to.” — Gandalf the Gray :)
  - realusername 10mo ago
    By "late", I mean they are starting to lose market share because of that in some regions, that kind of late.

makeitdouble 10mo ago

The most frustrating part is when Apple dropped the jack we laughed at the "courage" bit, Apple's given reasons where already seen as bullshit, Samsung had their finger pointing moment. And it just went on, Apple weathered the critics, the other makers also dropped it, and at some point there was just nowhere to go for anyone still wanted a 3.5 jack with a decent phone.

simpaticoder 10mo ago
I agree the loss of the 3.5mm jack is a short-sighted and poor decision. There is at least one mitigation, which is the ability to recover the jack through a USB-C DAC. Apple sells them for USD10. I have several, in the car and in my backpack. It's not a good solution though. In particular I find the USB-C port gets worn out pretty quickly. Its also easy to lose the dongle and of course it's more complicated to setup. (I'm not sure how to articulate the "it's more complicated" part. Adding the dongle elevates the action of "plug in headphones" from something you can do without attention to something that requires attention, and I don't like that.)
- hamburglar 10mo ago
  Also, seemingly without exception, the dongle itself is fragile and ends up causing constant crackling after a while.
- gopher_space 10mo ago
  Get a set of wired headphones without a built-in cord. Then you can use any USB-C to 3.5 male cord like normal.
  - simpaticoder 10mo ago
    You can't use a passive cable for this - there may be a USB-to-audio standard, but it's not widely implemented anymore. You need a DAC.
    - gopher_space 10mo ago

barbazoo 10mo ago

I just don’t know a single real person that still wants to use wired earphones with their phone. To me it’s the same as complaining that an artist only has CDs, not records.

mjevans 10mo ago
I want to use the extremely simple and reliable direct interface and inexpensive cheap earphones and patch cables that I can buy in any reasonable electronics store for low markup. They are all passive components. Adding an external sound card introduces variables outside of manufacture control, the quality, latency, and drive power all at the mercy of some random integrator. My phone is easily thick enough to accommodate a 3.5mm port, and it can't be that difficult to waterproof such a jack, which should also make reasonable cleaning easy if it's ever required.
- amrocha 10mo ago
  That might all be true, but at the same time most people don’t care or prefer wireless earphones.
subscribed 10mo ago
Wired headphones have no latency. AptX-LL are rare in the good quality headsets.
- Sohcahtoa82 10mo ago
  This right here, especially for gaming. When I use my Sony XM5 Bluetooth headphones, the latency is noticeable. Watching videos, the lips don't match the audio. Playing games, I see things before I hear them. It's probably in the ~150-200 ms range for latency. While gaming, I use a different set of wireless headphones that use a proprietary dongle. If they have any latency at all, I don't notice it.
  - barbazoo 10mo ago
    On the phone?

fancyfredbot 10mo ago

It's not the official reason, but also worth noting that many waterproof devices have headphone jacks.

Larrikin 10mo ago

This has been a lie since day one. The Sony Xperia line has been waterproof for over 10 years and continues to have a headphone jack and an SD card slot. That with their minimal Android tweaks is the main reason to even consider their phones.