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The original "Primer On Sexism" : 8 points and dead, 0 comments The Rebuttal: 150 points and rising, 140+ comments If that in and of itself doesn't say volume

by rada 14y ago

The original "Primer On Sexism" : 8 points and dead, 0 comments The Rebuttal: 150 points and rising, 140+ comments If that in and of itself doesn't say volumes about the sexist attitudes of the majority of HN readers - and as such, the tech industry as a whole - I don't know what does. Surely a long, thoughtful article, with tons of context in the form of links and research, written by the creator of Modernizr and a former Appler beats a shouty "enraged me so much" rebuttal by a designer at a minor UK web agency for 7 months and prior to that, a movie usher for 2 years? People on HN are fond of saying things like, "I couldn't care less whether someone has a vagina or a penis, as long as they write great software". So how come Laura The Troll is getting so much attention for "telling it like it is", just because she is an "actual girl"? I am an "actual girl" too and I am seriously disappointed. We were offered a 5-star meal but we pounced on a 99-cent gas station burger because it had a picture of a ripe tomato on it, so hey, it must be healthy. And Laura, if you are reading this, a small bit of advice for you. Next time an article "enrages" you, re-read it and I guarantee you will see that it doesn't say what you think it does.

Aloisius 14y ago
Agreed. People seem to be incredibly invested in believing that intelligent people could ever be sexist. When I've called out people over the years for being sexist or racist, often they don't even realize immediately they'd said something offensive because it usually is subtle rather than overt - off-color jokes, sexualized images or inappropriate topics.
- illuminate 14y ago
  It reminds me of the whole Skepchick versus Dawkins & the "MRAs" drama that happened months back.
zachinglis 14y ago
I'm really disappointed you decided to use phrases like "Laura The Troll." It's funny. Those who've disagreed with Laura have come down to name calling and such. Faruk's a good guy. But because he worked for Apple means nothing. Absolutely squat. If you judge people's worth on who they've worked for, then that's worrying. It's not who you've worked for - it's what you've done (Modernizr was a good link in this.) I know many Googler's, Appler's who spend a lot of time writing minor code for example. But how does working for Apple and writing Modenizr qualify him to speak about sexism? That's got nothing to do with the topic at hand. Laura's not the only person who's expressed this view. Many people in the comemnts have agreed (and disagreed) I think it doesn't say volumes about the sexist attitudes. It says volumes that people agree with her more. I'm sorry it doesn't fit in your belief box, but that doesn't make it trolling, nor does it make it wrong.
- toadburglar 14y ago
  What are your thoughts on the rashness of publishing her post, rather than attempting (more than just Twitter) to improve the article. What we could have had is a truly great (and revised) article on the top of HN rather than this troll inducing post and discussion?
  - zachinglis 14y ago
    Basically; I copy edited this article once she was done so I'm biased. But I do agree the rashness didn't help. HOWEVER! She was planning on writing something like this for many months. In the long run, I think a calmer article would have helped her but I absolutely agree with what she has to say.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- Cushman 14y ago
  I ain't touching the whole argument over form, but this: > Laura's not the only person who's expressed this view. Many people in the comemnts have agreed (and disagreed) I think gets at precisely the point. Your average HN reader, the one who's making these agreeing or disagreeing comments, is probably a cis man who doesn't think of himself as sexist, and understandably doesn't want to think that his industry is sexist either. The criticism here is that a relatively thin article denying sexism is being given more weight and credence than a much more exhaustive article documenting sexism, because 1) it's saying what we want to hear, and 2) its author is a woman, which-- well, I shouldn't need to point out the irony there.
  - zachinglis 14y ago
    Read the comments on her blog too. First is from a woman, and go down. There are people on both sides of the fence, as you'd expect. But the the original commenter was so blindsided in her views about how she thought the OP was blinded in her views, she didn't even stop to smell the irony.
zachinglis 14y ago
Also, her employers are a MAJOR agency. They have been partners of the year for Windows Phone, their client list is both long and high-profile. "And Laura, if you are reading this, a small bit of advice for you. Next time an article "enrages" you, re-read it and I guarantee you will see that it doesn't say what you think it does." I think you need to take your own advice.
- rada 14y ago
  New York City. Group of tourists gets off a bus in Times Square. Activist on megaphone: Let's all work together to end homelessness! Tourist: There are no homeless people in NYC! I don't see any! New Yorker: Um, what? Yes there are. How would you know, you've only just been here for 5 minutes. Tourist's Sister: New York is a MAJOR city. It's got wonderful theater, and the Yankees. New Yorker: [at a loss for words]
untog 14y ago
And true to form, this entry appears to be sliding down the Hacker News front page (it's the last entry as I write) despite having a ton of upvotes. The reason? Flagging. This has happened numerous times on HN when any discussion of sexism comes up- when I complained about it before I was told that the article were "not relevant" or "rehashes". It got to the point where a thread with 70+ comments was deleted because so many people flagged it. Depressing- especially because it means that most people aren't even aware that it's going on.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
mamoswined 14y ago
I don't think either article is really that great or deep, but Laura's is a lot more interesting and better written. Faruk's reads like a well-meaning bland HR presentation that everyone ignores. I also am disturbed by how dismissive you are, but my experience in tech is that when sexism comes up, it is always the women who are the meanest. Whether it's the experienced woman who insists she has never experienced sexism and you are a silly little fool for bringing it up. Or the woman who can't tolerate anyone questioning the latest politically correct spiel of the day like Faruk's. So she doesn't have that much experience? How about actually rebutting her arguments? Or do you just not like the idea of someone questioning these things? How about writing your own article?
- theorique 14y ago
  Agreed. Laura's article was focused and well-argued on specific points. Faruk's was bland, academic, overwrought, and jargon-laden.
dspeyer 14y ago
90% of regulars here could have written the original article. Therefore, there was little to be gained by reading it. The rebuttal may not have been of great importance, but we couldn't have written it. It's one person's experience (though there are probably a significant number like her) and it adds to our model of the situation. Also, it makes a significant meta-point: stereotyping is bad even when done by the self-proclaimed champions of the stereotyped group.
laurasanders 14y ago
I'm fully aware I've been in the industry for 6 months. I said so, very clearly, in my post. I wanted very much to make sure that people knew that I have only been in the industry a short time but this was my experience so far. Frankly I find the idea that just because someone has a small amount of experience their opinion is invalid ridiculous and insulting. The only reason a newcomer's opinion might not be worth listening to is if they are pretending they have a wealth of experience. At no point did I do that. I can only assume that the 2 years as a movie usher you're referring to is the 2 years as a teenager I spent volunteering at my local non-profit cinema whilst also doing my A-level exams and working a part-time job. I'm pretty sure the only place this is even mentioned online is on my LinkedIn profile, at the absolute bottom, after you would have scrolled past the various jobs I have held in sales and marketing, and local government (where as I mentioned in the post, I did in fact experience some sexism). As for the final comment, I did indeed reread the article several hours later, before I wrote my post, to ensure that I still felt the same way. I actually found MORE that I disagreed with on a second read-through.

by rada 14y ago

Aloisius 14y ago

Agreed. People seem to be incredibly invested in believing that intelligent people could ever be sexist. When I've called out people over the years for being sexist or racist, often they don't even realize immediately they'd said something offensive because it usually is subtle rather than overt - off-color jokes, sexualized images or inappropriate topics.

illuminate 14y ago
It reminds me of the whole Skepchick versus Dawkins & the "MRAs" drama that happened months back.

zachinglis 14y ago

I'm really disappointed you decided to use phrases like "Laura The Troll." It's funny. Those who've disagreed with Laura have come down to name calling and such. Faruk's a good guy. But because he worked for Apple means nothing. Absolutely squat. If you judge people's worth on who they've worked for, then that's worrying. It's not who you've worked for - it's what you've done (Modernizr was a good link in this.) I know many Googler's, Appler's who spend a lot of time writing minor code for example. But how does working for Apple and writing Modenizr qualify him to speak about sexism? That's got nothing to do with the topic at hand. Laura's not the only person who's expressed this view. Many people in the comemnts have agreed (and disagreed) I think it doesn't say volumes about the sexist attitudes. It says volumes that people agree with her more. I'm sorry it doesn't fit in your belief box, but that doesn't make it trolling, nor does it make it wrong.

toadburglar 14y ago
What are your thoughts on the rashness of publishing her post, rather than attempting (more than just Twitter) to improve the article. What we could have had is a truly great (and revised) article on the top of HN rather than this troll inducing post and discussion?
- zachinglis 14y ago
  Basically; I copy edited this article once she was done so I'm biased. But I do agree the rashness didn't help. HOWEVER! She was planning on writing something like this for many months. In the long run, I think a calmer article would have helped her but I absolutely agree with what she has to say.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
Cushman 14y ago
I ain't touching the whole argument over form, but this: > Laura's not the only person who's expressed this view. Many people in the comemnts have agreed (and disagreed) I think gets at precisely the point. Your average HN reader, the one who's making these agreeing or disagreeing comments, is probably a cis man who doesn't think of himself as sexist, and understandably doesn't want to think that his industry is sexist either. The criticism here is that a relatively thin article denying sexism is being given more weight and credence than a much more exhaustive article documenting sexism, because 1) it's saying what we want to hear, and 2) its author is a woman, which-- well, I shouldn't need to point out the irony there.
- zachinglis 14y ago
  Read the comments on her blog too. First is from a woman, and go down. There are people on both sides of the fence, as you'd expect. But the the original commenter was so blindsided in her views about how she thought the OP was blinded in her views, she didn't even stop to smell the irony.

zachinglis 14y ago

Also, her employers are a MAJOR agency. They have been partners of the year for Windows Phone, their client list is both long and high-profile. "And Laura, if you are reading this, a small bit of advice for you. Next time an article "enrages" you, re-read it and I guarantee you will see that it doesn't say what you think it does." I think you need to take your own advice.

rada 14y ago
New York City. Group of tourists gets off a bus in Times Square. Activist on megaphone: Let's all work together to end homelessness! Tourist: There are no homeless people in NYC! I don't see any! New Yorker: Um, what? Yes there are. How would you know, you've only just been here for 5 minutes. Tourist's Sister: New York is a MAJOR city. It's got wonderful theater, and the Yankees. New Yorker: [at a loss for words]

untog 14y ago

And true to form, this entry appears to be sliding down the Hacker News front page (it's the last entry as I write) despite having a ton of upvotes. The reason? Flagging. This has happened numerous times on HN when any discussion of sexism comes up- when I complained about it before I was told that the article were "not relevant" or "rehashes". It got to the point where a thread with 70+ comments was deleted because so many people flagged it. Depressing- especially because it means that most people aren't even aware that it's going on.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

mamoswined 14y ago

I don't think either article is really that great or deep, but Laura's is a lot more interesting and better written. Faruk's reads like a well-meaning bland HR presentation that everyone ignores. I also am disturbed by how dismissive you are, but my experience in tech is that when sexism comes up, it is always the women who are the meanest. Whether it's the experienced woman who insists she has never experienced sexism and you are a silly little fool for bringing it up. Or the woman who can't tolerate anyone questioning the latest politically correct spiel of the day like Faruk's. So she doesn't have that much experience? How about actually rebutting her arguments? Or do you just not like the idea of someone questioning these things? How about writing your own article?

theorique 14y ago
Agreed. Laura's article was focused and well-argued on specific points. Faruk's was bland, academic, overwrought, and jargon-laden.

dspeyer 14y ago

90% of regulars here could have written the original article. Therefore, there was little to be gained by reading it. The rebuttal may not have been of great importance, but we couldn't have written it. It's one person's experience (though there are probably a significant number like her) and it adds to our model of the situation. Also, it makes a significant meta-point: stereotyping is bad even when done by the self-proclaimed champions of the stereotyped group.

laurasanders 14y ago

I'm fully aware I've been in the industry for 6 months. I said so, very clearly, in my post. I wanted very much to make sure that people knew that I have only been in the industry a short time but this was my experience so far. Frankly I find the idea that just because someone has a small amount of experience their opinion is invalid ridiculous and insulting. The only reason a newcomer's opinion might not be worth listening to is if they are pretending they have a wealth of experience. At no point did I do that. I can only assume that the 2 years as a movie usher you're referring to is the 2 years as a teenager I spent volunteering at my local non-profit cinema whilst also doing my A-level exams and working a part-time job. I'm pretty sure the only place this is even mentioned online is on my LinkedIn profile, at the absolute bottom, after you would have scrolled past the various jobs I have held in sales and marketing, and local government (where as I mentioned in the post, I did in fact experience some sexism). As for the final comment, I did indeed reread the article several hours later, before I wrote my post, to ensure that I still felt the same way. I actually found MORE that I disagreed with on a second read-through.