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Israel invests in defending their civilians with technology like Iron Beam. In contrast the Gazan government strategically uses humans shields [2, 3] and despi

by elcritch 10mo ago

Israel invests in defending their civilians with technology like Iron Beam. In contrast the Gazan government strategically uses humans shields [2, 3] and despite this the majority of Palestinians still support starting this war by attacking civilians on Oct 7th [1]. Defense technology doesn’t help if you don’t want it unfortunately. Hamas also has hundreds of miles of tunnels which civilians aren’t allowed to use. 1: https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/1000#:~:text=The%20Trump%20Plan:%20Awareness%20of,will%20permanently%20end%20the%20war. https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/1000#:~:text=The%20Trump%20Pla... 2: https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.... 3: https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2023/11/01/hamas-officials-admit-its-strategy-is-to-use-palestinian-civilians-as-human-shields/ https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2023/11/01/hamas-officials-admi...

kennywinker 10mo ago
To say that israel invests in defense is at least 1/4 untrue, since the US sends billions every year. The US gave them about 7b cash last year, which is around 1/4 of their defense budget, and doesn’t include things like stationing carriers nearby, or doing airstrikes on houthi blockades. Us $ to israel: https://usafacts.org/answers/how-much-foreign-aid-does-the-us-provide/countries/israel/ https://usafacts.org/answers/how-much-foreign-aid-does-the-u... Israel defense budget: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-raise-defence-spending-meet-security-challenges-2025-07-17/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-raise-defen...
- elcritch 10mo ago
  That the US contributes doesn’t take away from the billions Israel did and does invest. The US defense contractors also get a big chunk of that aid. The US also gives similar levels of military aid to Egypt as well. The EU and US give billions to Ukraine. Gaza also receives billions in aid; substantial amounts of which has been hihacked and looted. For example this lady summer the UN reported that 88% of their aid trucks in Gaza were looted [1]. 1: https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2025/08/05/un-reports-88-percent-of-aid-trucks-slated-for-delivery-in-gaza-since-may-looted-along-routes/ https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2025/08/05/un-reports-88-percen...
  - kennywinker 10mo ago
    > That the US contributes doesn’t take away from the billions Israel did and does invest Actually it does? It takes about 1/4 away. > The US also gives similar levels of military aid to Egypt as well. The EU and US give billions to Ukraine. Yes, the US uses defense aid to further their own agenda internationally, and funnel public dollars into private hands. > Gaza also receives billions in aid Food, medical, and infrastructure aid is not the same thing as weapons. > 88% of their aid trucks in Gaza were looted Ok? This tells me that both food and food aid are in short supply, if people are willing to take it by force. If myself and my family was starving, i would hyjack food trucks too. Wouldn’t you?
    - throw10920 10mo ago
      >> That the US contributes doesn’t take away from the billions Israel did and does invest > Actually it does? It takes about 1/4 away. It literally does not. The way that every English speaker uses the word "invests" is exactly the opposite of this. If you're going to speak English, you use words as native speakers use them and you don't make up your own definitions.
      - kennywinker 10mo ago
        I am a native english speaker. Israel “invests” ~30b in military spending. Of that, ~7b is not their own money, and the could not accept that money and spend it another way. Therefore, israel “invests” about 1/4 less than it would seem.
    - LorenPechtel 10mo ago
      They want you to think that. There is no way any group other than Hamas could be operating at that scale. It's Hams taking the aid to use it to control the population. It's not like they were actually starving--Hamas never managed to find a legitimately starving person to point a camera at. Every single person they paraded in front of the cameras had medical issues that were the cause of their problems. Just go look inside a hospice, should we conclude they are starving people?
- throw10920 10mo ago
  > To say that israel invests in defense is at least 1/4 untrue, since the US sends billions every year. This is factually incorrect. The amount of money that the US gives Israel is completely and totally irrelevant to whether or not Israel also invests their own money in defense. The fact that the US has a problem with foreign influence literally does not matter for the statement above. To be clear, I don't agree with the GP's implied suggestion that Israel is more defensive than offensive, but making objectively incorrect statements is not a valid way to refute that.
  - kennywinker 10mo ago
    Can i rephrase to help you understand my point? The defensive and offensive capabilities of Israel is about 1/4 larger because of american tax dollars not their own spending.
    - tguvot 10mo ago
      us aid is around 6% of defense budget
      - kennywinker 9mo ago
        1/4 by my reckoning. See links to my sources in the grandparent post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46452680 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46452680
        tguvot 9mo ago
        israeli defense budget is around $35b-$45b usa aid is typically around $3b-$3.5b . 2024 higher aid is one off due to the war. also (unless i am wrong), good chunk of aid that Israel got from usa during war was in form of loans/guarantees for loans and such
        kennywinker 9mo ago
        Their military budget is wayyy up due to the war, so if you’re ignoring recent giving you should also be ignoring recent spending. In 2020 their military budget was ~21b. In 2020 the US gave 3.8b - so 21%, or 1/5. My number was based on 2024 budget and spending, which is why i said 1/4, but you’re probably right that pre-war numbers are more accurate if we’re talking about their long term spending trends. Sources: Israel military budget: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/MS.MIL.XPND.CD?end=2020&locations=IL https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/MS.MIL.XPND.CD?end=2020... US money to israel, page 6: https://www.congress.gov/crs_external_products/RL/PDF/RL33222/RL33222.39.pdf https://www.congress.gov/crs_external_products/RL/PDF/RL3322...
buran77 10mo ago
> the Gazan government strategically uses humans shields This just means Israel knows they're hitting women and children every time they send a bomb their way. > the majority of Palestinians still support starting this war Palestine isn't a democracy with well documented preferences. Israel is though, so why don't you say that a majority of Israelis are fine with the killing of women and children in Gaza? elcritch, you're beating around the bush but strongly suggesting there's a reasonable justification (not just an explanation) for killing women and children if it suits someone's needs. Does this apply just to Israel killing people in Gaza or universally valid? Because I distinctly remember the US going to war over WMD that never existed. So elcritch, are you saying US women and children are fair game now?
- JumpCrisscross 10mo ago
  > are you saying US women and children are fair game now? Women have been serving in combat roles in the U.S. military for decades now…
  - buran77 9mo ago
    I was obviously referring to civilians. I'll try to spell things out for you more clearly next time.
- LorenPechtel 10mo ago
  1) The average death per bomb was less than 1. Strikes mostly hit things which had already been evacuated. 2) When human shields get hit we blame the side that put them in harm's way, not the side that harmed them. Just look at the criminal trials in police actions--a hostage dies when SWAT hits a place, the murder rap lands on the person who took the hostage even if it turns out to be a police bullet in the hostage. And your note about WMD--said WMD existed. On paper. We read the paper, didn't realize it was underlings lying to Saddam.
  - buran77 9mo ago
    > said WMD existed. On paper. So they didn't. > a hostage dies when SWAT hits a place, the murder rap lands on the person who took the hostage even if it turns out to be a police bullet in the hostage. The murder wrap doesn't fall on the SWAT shooter even when they shoot completely unarmed, innocent people, in their own home. So all your example says is that SWAT gets gets a free pass for murder no matter what. All it takes is for someone to anonymously say "LorenPechtel is a terrorist, he's planning to blow up some children at this address right now" and your chances are slim.
LorenPechtel 10mo ago
Nitpick here: Your link #1 turns out to have been being manipulated by Hamas. I do agree the Hamas strategy was explicitly about getting civilians killed, though.

kennywinker 10mo ago

To say that israel invests in defense is at least 1/4 untrue, since the US sends billions every year. The US gave them about 7b cash last year, which is around 1/4 of their defense budget, and doesn’t include things like stationing carriers nearby, or doing airstrikes on houthi blockades. Us $ to israel: https://usafacts.org/answers/how-much-foreign-aid-does-the-us-provide/countries/israel/ https://usafacts.org/answers/how-much-foreign-aid-does-the-u... Israel defense budget: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-raise-defence-spending-meet-security-challenges-2025-07-17/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-raise-defen...

elcritch 10mo ago
That the US contributes doesn’t take away from the billions Israel did and does invest. The US defense contractors also get a big chunk of that aid. The US also gives similar levels of military aid to Egypt as well. The EU and US give billions to Ukraine. Gaza also receives billions in aid; substantial amounts of which has been hihacked and looted. For example this lady summer the UN reported that 88% of their aid trucks in Gaza were looted [1]. 1: https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2025/08/05/un-reports-88-percent-of-aid-trucks-slated-for-delivery-in-gaza-since-may-looted-along-routes/ https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2025/08/05/un-reports-88-percen...
- kennywinker 10mo ago
  > That the US contributes doesn’t take away from the billions Israel did and does invest Actually it does? It takes about 1/4 away. > The US also gives similar levels of military aid to Egypt as well. The EU and US give billions to Ukraine. Yes, the US uses defense aid to further their own agenda internationally, and funnel public dollars into private hands. > Gaza also receives billions in aid Food, medical, and infrastructure aid is not the same thing as weapons. > 88% of their aid trucks in Gaza were looted Ok? This tells me that both food and food aid are in short supply, if people are willing to take it by force. If myself and my family was starving, i would hyjack food trucks too. Wouldn’t you?
  - throw10920 10mo ago
    >> That the US contributes doesn’t take away from the billions Israel did and does invest > Actually it does? It takes about 1/4 away. It literally does not. The way that every English speaker uses the word "invests" is exactly the opposite of this. If you're going to speak English, you use words as native speakers use them and you don't make up your own definitions.
    - kennywinker 10mo ago
      I am a native english speaker. Israel “invests” ~30b in military spending. Of that, ~7b is not their own money, and the could not accept that money and spend it another way. Therefore, israel “invests” about 1/4 less than it would seem.
  - LorenPechtel 10mo ago
    They want you to think that. There is no way any group other than Hamas could be operating at that scale. It's Hams taking the aid to use it to control the population. It's not like they were actually starving--Hamas never managed to find a legitimately starving person to point a camera at. Every single person they paraded in front of the cameras had medical issues that were the cause of their problems. Just go look inside a hospice, should we conclude they are starving people?
throw10920 10mo ago
> To say that israel invests in defense is at least 1/4 untrue, since the US sends billions every year. This is factually incorrect. The amount of money that the US gives Israel is completely and totally irrelevant to whether or not Israel also invests their own money in defense. The fact that the US has a problem with foreign influence literally does not matter for the statement above. To be clear, I don't agree with the GP's implied suggestion that Israel is more defensive than offensive, but making objectively incorrect statements is not a valid way to refute that.
- kennywinker 10mo ago
  Can i rephrase to help you understand my point? The defensive and offensive capabilities of Israel is about 1/4 larger because of american tax dollars not their own spending.
  - tguvot 10mo ago
    us aid is around 6% of defense budget
    - kennywinker 9mo ago
      1/4 by my reckoning. See links to my sources in the grandparent post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46452680 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46452680
      - tguvot 9mo ago
        israeli defense budget is around $35b-$45b usa aid is typically around $3b-$3.5b . 2024 higher aid is one off due to the war. also (unless i am wrong), good chunk of aid that Israel got from usa during war was in form of loans/guarantees for loans and such
        kennywinker 9mo ago
        Their military budget is wayyy up due to the war, so if you’re ignoring recent giving you should also be ignoring recent spending. In 2020 their military budget was ~21b. In 2020 the US gave 3.8b - so 21%, or 1/5. My number was based on 2024 budget and spending, which is why i said 1/4, but you’re probably right that pre-war numbers are more accurate if we’re talking about their long term spending trends. Sources: Israel military budget: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/MS.MIL.XPND.CD?end=2020&locations=IL https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/MS.MIL.XPND.CD?end=2020... US money to israel, page 6: https://www.congress.gov/crs_external_products/RL/PDF/RL33222/RL33222.39.pdf https://www.congress.gov/crs_external_products/RL/PDF/RL3322...

buran77 10mo ago

> the Gazan government strategically uses humans shields This just means Israel knows they're hitting women and children every time they send a bomb their way. > the majority of Palestinians still support starting this war Palestine isn't a democracy with well documented preferences. Israel is though, so why don't you say that a majority of Israelis are fine with the killing of women and children in Gaza? elcritch, you're beating around the bush but strongly suggesting there's a reasonable justification (not just an explanation) for killing women and children if it suits someone's needs. Does this apply just to Israel killing people in Gaza or universally valid? Because I distinctly remember the US going to war over WMD that never existed. So elcritch, are you saying US women and children are fair game now?

JumpCrisscross 10mo ago
> are you saying US women and children are fair game now? Women have been serving in combat roles in the U.S. military for decades now…
- buran77 9mo ago
  I was obviously referring to civilians. I'll try to spell things out for you more clearly next time.
LorenPechtel 10mo ago
1) The average death per bomb was less than 1. Strikes mostly hit things which had already been evacuated. 2) When human shields get hit we blame the side that put them in harm's way, not the side that harmed them. Just look at the criminal trials in police actions--a hostage dies when SWAT hits a place, the murder rap lands on the person who took the hostage even if it turns out to be a police bullet in the hostage. And your note about WMD--said WMD existed. On paper. We read the paper, didn't realize it was underlings lying to Saddam.
- buran77 9mo ago
  > said WMD existed. On paper. So they didn't. > a hostage dies when SWAT hits a place, the murder rap lands on the person who took the hostage even if it turns out to be a police bullet in the hostage. The murder wrap doesn't fall on the SWAT shooter even when they shoot completely unarmed, innocent people, in their own home. So all your example says is that SWAT gets gets a free pass for murder no matter what. All it takes is for someone to anonymously say "LorenPechtel is a terrorist, he's planning to blow up some children at this address right now" and your chances are slim.

LorenPechtel 10mo ago

Nitpick here: Your link #1 turns out to have been being manipulated by Hamas. I do agree the Hamas strategy was explicitly about getting civilians killed, though.