6 ms·

Data says it’s the Palestinians that need defenses, not the ones doing 95% of the killing. https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties https://www.ochaopt.org/data

by recroad 9mo ago

Data says it’s the Palestinians that need defenses, not the ones doing 95% of the killing. https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties

falcor84 9mo ago
What kind of argument is that? All civilians should be protected.
Gibbon1 9mo ago
Palestinians patrons need to tell them they aren't going to win militarily against the Israeli's
- delichon 9mo ago
  Not today, but the fertily rate is 2.9 in Israel and 3.9 in Gaza. Even if demographics isn't quite destiny it's generally the way to bet.
  - Gibbon1 9mo ago
    Just a reminder pushing people to start wars they can't win is shitty.
    - delichon 9mo ago
      To me those stats suggest that the Palestinians have a bigger advantage in making love than war. How do you think they encourage war?
      - cindyllm 9mo ago
        [dead]
      - Gibbon1 9mo ago
        You encourage war and murder. What you just said is that while the Palestinians in Gaza aren't strong enough now to kill and enslave the Jews and Arabs in Israel they will be in the future. And once they are they will do that. And the thought of that makes you hopeful.
        delichon 9mo ago
        I'm a Zionist.
elcritch 9mo ago
Israel invests in defending their civilians with technology like Iron Beam. In contrast the Gazan government strategically uses humans shields [2, 3] and despite this the majority of Palestinians still support starting this war by attacking civilians on Oct 7th [1]. Defense technology doesn’t help if you don’t want it unfortunately. Hamas also has hundreds of miles of tunnels which civilians aren’t allowed to use. 1: https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/1000#:~:text=The%20Trump%20Plan:%20Awareness%20of,will%20permanently%20end%20the%20war. https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/1000#:~:text=The%20Trump%20Pla... 2: https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.... 3: https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2023/11/01/hamas-officials-admit-its-strategy-is-to-use-palestinian-civilians-as-human-shields/ https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2023/11/01/hamas-officials-admi...
- kennywinker 9mo ago
  To say that israel invests in defense is at least 1/4 untrue, since the US sends billions every year. The US gave them about 7b cash last year, which is around 1/4 of their defense budget, and doesn’t include things like stationing carriers nearby, or doing airstrikes on houthi blockades. Us $ to israel: https://usafacts.org/answers/how-much-foreign-aid-does-the-us-provide/countries/israel/ https://usafacts.org/answers/how-much-foreign-aid-does-the-u... Israel defense budget: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-raise-defence-spending-meet-security-challenges-2025-07-17/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-raise-defen...
  - elcritch 9mo ago
    That the US contributes doesn’t take away from the billions Israel did and does invest. The US defense contractors also get a big chunk of that aid. The US also gives similar levels of military aid to Egypt as well. The EU and US give billions to Ukraine. Gaza also receives billions in aid; substantial amounts of which has been hihacked and looted. For example this lady summer the UN reported that 88% of their aid trucks in Gaza were looted [1]. 1: https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2025/08/05/un-reports-88-percent-of-aid-trucks-slated-for-delivery-in-gaza-since-may-looted-along-routes/ https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2025/08/05/un-reports-88-percen...
XorNot 9mo ago
Defensive weapons technology is how you get less conflict though. When some idiot in the ME decides to shoot something at Israel, the character of the response demanded by the population depends heavily on whether any Israelis die or property is destroyed. Israel didn't aggressively bomb Gaza till October 7 killed a lot of Israelis, even though they were regularly shooting down Hamas launched rockets with Iron Dome. There is a practical gulf in political and diplomatic options depending on if an attack lands or does not, so much so that whether or not someone can shoot down incoming weaponry is a factor in some diplomatic decisions (I.e. Iran firing missiles at US bases in Qatar).
- richardwhiuk 9mo ago
  It’s not clear that’s true. States which don’t fear being attacked are more likely to attack other states
  - XorNot 9mo ago
    Frankly where's the evidence of this? My country of Australia has no fear of being attacked, yet we haven't launched an endeavor of conquest of South East Asia.' Real life doesn't break down into simple narratives. The facts in the Middle East are that post-October 7 Israel aggressively bombarded Gaza at a scale and intensity where it did not previously, and a substantial chunk of the population supported that. In particular, it felt compelled to significantly escalate kinetic action against Hamas and Iran where it had not previously. Post 9/11 the US aggressively invaded 2 sovereign nations it otherwise had little interest in and occupied them for 20 years. These are all scales and levels of military action which were precipitated by successful attacks that killed civilians. If 9/11 hijackers had been stopped in the planning stage, does the US still invade Afgahnistan? Probably not - it wasn't on anyone's cards. Iraq maybe but the conditions were set by that strike hitting the way it did.
    - LtWorf 9mo ago
      > My country of Australia has no fear of being attacked, yet we haven't launched an endeavor of conquest of South East Asia.' You would have done it if you thought you could get away with it and had sufficient power.
throw-12-16 9mo ago
Life is not fair.
MomsAVoxell 9mo ago
[flagged]
hersko 9mo ago
Country A attacks vastly more powerful neighbor. They have no defensive infrastructure (for civilians), no plans for minimizing civilian deaths, no hope of actually winning the war they started. There strategy is to fight in a dense urban environment among their own civilians while firing thousands of unguided rockets at their enemy, knowing the retaliation is going to be horrific with no way for them to stop it (other than surrendering, but they would rather all die). Country B has possibly the best missile defense system in the world; mainly because their neighbors shoot unguided rockets into their city. They work to defend their citizens at all costs even with expensive missiles and a protracted military campaign. They design cutting edge laser missile defense to help them alleviate the burden of protecting their citizens. The only reason they do not have to completely annihilate their neighbor who's shooting rockets at them is because they are able to intercept most of them. If those rockets were actually landing and causing tens of thousands of civilian casualties their retaliation would have to be far more deadly. People on the internet: "actually its the civilians from country A who need defenses"
- recroad 9mo ago
  Country A is resisting a 75 year violent occupation and apartheid (see stats posted earlier) and currently suffering genocide. Anyone denying that is no different than anyone denying the holocaust - equally vile and reprehensible. But everyone somehow seems to conveniently forget that part. Don't take my word for it, list of apartheid and genocide reports below. The reason this doesn't make the discourse, even on communities like Hacker News which are supposed to be "smart", is because of decades of the West being brainwashed to the point where Islamophobia is normalized and ubiquitous. Genocide accusations: - Amnesty International - https://zeteo.com/p/amnesty-concludes-israel-genocide-gaza https://zeteo.com/p/amnesty-concludes-israel-genocide-gaza - Human Rights Watch - https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/12/19/israels-crime-extermination-acts-genocide-gaza https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/12/19/israels-crime-exterminat... - Médecins Sans Frontières (Doctors Without Borders) - https://msf.org.uk/issues/gaza-genocide https://msf.org.uk/issues/gaza-genocide - University Network for Human Rights - https://www.humanrightsnetwork.org/projects/genocide-in-gaza https://www.humanrightsnetwork.org/projects/genocide-in-gaza - B'Tselem - https://zeteo.com/p/israeli-human-rights-group-says-israel https://zeteo.com/p/israeli-human-rights-group-says-israel - Al-Haq - https://www.alhaq.org/publications/25781.html https://www.alhaq.org/publications/25781.html - Palestinian Centre for Human Rights - https://pchrgaza.org/category/genocide-against-gaza/ https://pchrgaza.org/category/genocide-against-gaza/ - Physicians for Human Rights - Israel - United Nations Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied - Palestinian Territory - https://zeteo.com/p/united-nations-un-gaza-genocide-israel https://zeteo.com/p/united-nations-un-gaza-genocide-israel - The International Association of Genocide Scholars - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/sep/01/israel-committing-genocide-in-gaza-worlds-top-scholars-on-the-say https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/sep/01/israel-committ... Apartheid accusations: - Amnesty International - https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/03/israel-opt-israel-is-committing-apartheid-says-un-special-rapporteur/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/03/israel-opt-is... - Human Rights Watch - https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/isra... - B'Tselem - https://www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is_apartheid https://www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is... - Al-Haq - https://www.alhaq.org/advocacy/16183.html https://www.alhaq.org/advocacy/16183.html - Palestinian Centre for Human Rights (PCHR) - https://www.alhaq.org/advocacy/16183.html https://www.alhaq.org/advocacy/16183.html - Al Mezan Centre for Human Rights - https://www.alhaq.org/advocacy/19761.html https://www.alhaq.org/advocacy/19761.html - Addameer Prisoner Support and Human Rights Association - https://www.alhaq.org/advocacy/20931.html https://www.alhaq.org/advocacy/20931.html - UN Special Rapporteur Michael Lynk - https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/03/israels-55-year-occupation-palestinian-territory-apartheid-un-human-rights https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/03/israels-55-y... - UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (CERD) - https://www.alhaq.org/advocacy/16324.html https://www.alhaq.org/advocacy/16324.html - Human Sciences Research Council of South Africa - https://www.alhaq.org/advocacy/7207.html https://www.alhaq.org/advocacy/7207.html - International Federation for Human Rights (FIDH) - Referenced in multiple coalition statements - BADIL Resource Center - https://badil.org/press-releases/592.html https://badil.org/press-releases/592.html - Cairo Institute for Human Rights Studies (CIHRS) - https://www.alhaq.org/advocacy/17012.html https://www.alhaq.org/advocacy/17012.html - Palestinian Coalition of 8 Organizations - https://www.alhaq.org/advocacy/20931.html https://www.alhaq.org/advocacy/20931.html
LorenPechtel 9mo ago
The defenses they need are against Hamas. Nobody else comes close to Israel in protecting civilians in combat zones. And let's take a critical eye to that data you linked. I'm having a hard time with the filters but we can see enough without: The fatalities are nearly 90% male. That implies that probably 80% are in some fashion combatants or combatant-adjacent. And note that the death toll for the recent war includes all deaths. Natural causes, internal combat, rockets falling short (historically, ~25% of Gaza deaths, but probably not this time), combatants and civilians. As well as some that are fake. And Hamas had the power to end the war at any time--return the hostages, the world would quickly have stopped Israel. Thus we can conclude that Hamas wanted the war despite what it did to their population.
- belter 9mo ago
  >> Nobody else comes close to Israel in protecting civilians in combat zones. "Israeli military’s own data indicates civilian death rate of 83% in Gaza war" - https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2025/aug/21/revealed-israeli-militarys-own-data-indicates-civilian-death-rate-of-83-in-gaza-war https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2025/aug/21...
  - jameshilliard 9mo ago
    > "Israeli military’s own data indicates civilian death rate of 83% in Gaza war" The way they came up with this 83% figure is insane, they are essentially claiming everyone killed that hasn't been identified as a named fighter in one specific Israeli military intelligence database is assumed to be a civilian, this logic is of course blatantly misleading as one would not expect Israel to have the capability to identify the name of each and every enemy combatant in a war zone. On top of that the total number killed is a figure published by the Hamas run Gaza Health Ministry which is well known to have major accuracy issues.
    - LorenPechtel 9mo ago
      You only are identifying half the problem. That list was of those both identified to be terrorist and identified to be dead. Thus, not only does it not count the unidentified dead but it also does not count the identified but not established to be terrorist.
it_learnses 9mo ago
[dead]

by recroad 9mo ago

Data says it’s the Palestinians that need defenses, not the ones doing 95% of the killing. https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties

falcor84 9mo ago

What kind of argument is that? All civilians should be protected.

Gibbon1 9mo ago

Palestinians patrons need to tell them they aren't going to win militarily against the Israeli's

delichon 9mo ago
Not today, but the fertily rate is 2.9 in Israel and 3.9 in Gaza. Even if demographics isn't quite destiny it's generally the way to bet.
- Gibbon1 9mo ago
  Just a reminder pushing people to start wars they can't win is shitty.
  - delichon 9mo ago
    To me those stats suggest that the Palestinians have a bigger advantage in making love than war. How do you think they encourage war?
    - cindyllm 9mo ago
      [dead]
    - Gibbon1 9mo ago
      You encourage war and murder. What you just said is that while the Palestinians in Gaza aren't strong enough now to kill and enslave the Jews and Arabs in Israel they will be in the future. And once they are they will do that. And the thought of that makes you hopeful.
      - delichon 9mo ago
        I'm a Zionist.

elcritch 9mo ago

Israel invests in defending their civilians with technology like Iron Beam. In contrast the Gazan government strategically uses humans shields [2, 3] and despite this the majority of Palestinians still support starting this war by attacking civilians on Oct 7th [1]. Defense technology doesn’t help if you don’t want it unfortunately. Hamas also has hundreds of miles of tunnels which civilians aren’t allowed to use. 1: https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/1000#:~:text=The%20Trump%20Plan:%20Awareness%20of,will%20permanently%20end%20the%20war. https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/1000#:~:text=The%20Trump%20Pla... 2: https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.... 3: https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2023/11/01/hamas-officials-admit-its-strategy-is-to-use-palestinian-civilians-as-human-shields/ https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2023/11/01/hamas-officials-admi...

kennywinker 9mo ago
To say that israel invests in defense is at least 1/4 untrue, since the US sends billions every year. The US gave them about 7b cash last year, which is around 1/4 of their defense budget, and doesn’t include things like stationing carriers nearby, or doing airstrikes on houthi blockades. Us $ to israel: https://usafacts.org/answers/how-much-foreign-aid-does-the-us-provide/countries/israel/ https://usafacts.org/answers/how-much-foreign-aid-does-the-u... Israel defense budget: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-raise-defence-spending-meet-security-challenges-2025-07-17/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-raise-defen...
- elcritch 9mo ago
  That the US contributes doesn’t take away from the billions Israel did and does invest. The US defense contractors also get a big chunk of that aid. The US also gives similar levels of military aid to Egypt as well. The EU and US give billions to Ukraine. Gaza also receives billions in aid; substantial amounts of which has been hihacked and looted. For example this lady summer the UN reported that 88% of their aid trucks in Gaza were looted [1]. 1: https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2025/08/05/un-reports-88-percent-of-aid-trucks-slated-for-delivery-in-gaza-since-may-looted-along-routes/ https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2025/08/05/un-reports-88-percen...

XorNot 9mo ago

Defensive weapons technology is how you get less conflict though. When some idiot in the ME decides to shoot something at Israel, the character of the response demanded by the population depends heavily on whether any Israelis die or property is destroyed. Israel didn't aggressively bomb Gaza till October 7 killed a lot of Israelis, even though they were regularly shooting down Hamas launched rockets with Iron Dome. There is a practical gulf in political and diplomatic options depending on if an attack lands or does not, so much so that whether or not someone can shoot down incoming weaponry is a factor in some diplomatic decisions (I.e. Iran firing missiles at US bases in Qatar).

richardwhiuk 9mo ago
It’s not clear that’s true. States which don’t fear being attacked are more likely to attack other states
- XorNot 9mo ago
  Frankly where's the evidence of this? My country of Australia has no fear of being attacked, yet we haven't launched an endeavor of conquest of South East Asia.' Real life doesn't break down into simple narratives. The facts in the Middle East are that post-October 7 Israel aggressively bombarded Gaza at a scale and intensity where it did not previously, and a substantial chunk of the population supported that. In particular, it felt compelled to significantly escalate kinetic action against Hamas and Iran where it had not previously. Post 9/11 the US aggressively invaded 2 sovereign nations it otherwise had little interest in and occupied them for 20 years. These are all scales and levels of military action which were precipitated by successful attacks that killed civilians. If 9/11 hijackers had been stopped in the planning stage, does the US still invade Afgahnistan? Probably not - it wasn't on anyone's cards. Iraq maybe but the conditions were set by that strike hitting the way it did.
  - LtWorf 9mo ago
    > My country of Australia has no fear of being attacked, yet we haven't launched an endeavor of conquest of South East Asia.' You would have done it if you thought you could get away with it and had sufficient power.

throw-12-16 9mo ago

Life is not fair.

MomsAVoxell 9mo ago

[flagged]

hersko 9mo ago

Country A attacks vastly more powerful neighbor. They have no defensive infrastructure (for civilians), no plans for minimizing civilian deaths, no hope of actually winning the war they started. There strategy is to fight in a dense urban environment among their own civilians while firing thousands of unguided rockets at their enemy, knowing the retaliation is going to be horrific with no way for them to stop it (other than surrendering, but they would rather all die). Country B has possibly the best missile defense system in the world; mainly because their neighbors shoot unguided rockets into their city. They work to defend their citizens at all costs even with expensive missiles and a protracted military campaign. They design cutting edge laser missile defense to help them alleviate the burden of protecting their citizens. The only reason they do not have to completely annihilate their neighbor who's shooting rockets at them is because they are able to intercept most of them. If those rockets were actually landing and causing tens of thousands of civilian casualties their retaliation would have to be far more deadly. People on the internet: "actually its the civilians from country A who need defenses"

recroad 9mo ago
Country A is resisting a 75 year violent occupation and apartheid (see stats posted earlier) and currently suffering genocide. Anyone denying that is no different than anyone denying the holocaust - equally vile and reprehensible. But everyone somehow seems to conveniently forget that part. Don't take my word for it, list of apartheid and genocide reports below. The reason this doesn't make the discourse, even on communities like Hacker News which are supposed to be "smart", is because of decades of the West being brainwashed to the point where Islamophobia is normalized and ubiquitous. Genocide accusations: - Amnesty International - https://zeteo.com/p/amnesty-concludes-israel-genocide-gaza https://zeteo.com/p/amnesty-concludes-israel-genocide-gaza - Human Rights Watch - https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/12/19/israels-crime-extermination-acts-genocide-gaza https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/12/19/israels-crime-exterminat... - Médecins Sans Frontières (Doctors Without Borders) - https://msf.org.uk/issues/gaza-genocide https://msf.org.uk/issues/gaza-genocide - University Network for Human Rights - https://www.humanrightsnetwork.org/projects/genocide-in-gaza https://www.humanrightsnetwork.org/projects/genocide-in-gaza - B'Tselem - https://zeteo.com/p/israeli-human-rights-group-says-israel https://zeteo.com/p/israeli-human-rights-group-says-israel - Al-Haq - https://www.alhaq.org/publications/25781.html https://www.alhaq.org/publications/25781.html - Palestinian Centre for Human Rights - https://pchrgaza.org/category/genocide-against-gaza/ https://pchrgaza.org/category/genocide-against-gaza/ - Physicians for Human Rights - Israel - United Nations Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied - Palestinian Territory - https://zeteo.com/p/united-nations-un-gaza-genocide-israel https://zeteo.com/p/united-nations-un-gaza-genocide-israel - The International Association of Genocide Scholars - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/sep/01/israel-committing-genocide-in-gaza-worlds-top-scholars-on-the-say https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/sep/01/israel-committ... Apartheid accusations: - Amnesty International - https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/03/israel-opt-israel-is-committing-apartheid-says-un-special-rapporteur/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/03/israel-opt-is... - Human Rights Watch - https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/isra... - B'Tselem - https://www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is_apartheid https://www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is... - Al-Haq - https://www.alhaq.org/advocacy/16183.html https://www.alhaq.org/advocacy/16183.html - Palestinian Centre for Human Rights (PCHR) - https://www.alhaq.org/advocacy/16183.html https://www.alhaq.org/advocacy/16183.html - Al Mezan Centre for Human Rights - https://www.alhaq.org/advocacy/19761.html https://www.alhaq.org/advocacy/19761.html - Addameer Prisoner Support and Human Rights Association - https://www.alhaq.org/advocacy/20931.html https://www.alhaq.org/advocacy/20931.html - UN Special Rapporteur Michael Lynk - https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/03/israels-55-year-occupation-palestinian-territory-apartheid-un-human-rights https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/03/israels-55-y... - UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (CERD) - https://www.alhaq.org/advocacy/16324.html https://www.alhaq.org/advocacy/16324.html - Human Sciences Research Council of South Africa - https://www.alhaq.org/advocacy/7207.html https://www.alhaq.org/advocacy/7207.html - International Federation for Human Rights (FIDH) - Referenced in multiple coalition statements - BADIL Resource Center - https://badil.org/press-releases/592.html https://badil.org/press-releases/592.html - Cairo Institute for Human Rights Studies (CIHRS) - https://www.alhaq.org/advocacy/17012.html https://www.alhaq.org/advocacy/17012.html - Palestinian Coalition of 8 Organizations - https://www.alhaq.org/advocacy/20931.html https://www.alhaq.org/advocacy/20931.html

LorenPechtel 9mo ago

The defenses they need are against Hamas. Nobody else comes close to Israel in protecting civilians in combat zones. And let's take a critical eye to that data you linked. I'm having a hard time with the filters but we can see enough without: The fatalities are nearly 90% male. That implies that probably 80% are in some fashion combatants or combatant-adjacent. And note that the death toll for the recent war includes all deaths. Natural causes, internal combat, rockets falling short (historically, ~25% of Gaza deaths, but probably not this time), combatants and civilians. As well as some that are fake. And Hamas had the power to end the war at any time--return the hostages, the world would quickly have stopped Israel. Thus we can conclude that Hamas wanted the war despite what it did to their population.

belter 9mo ago
>> Nobody else comes close to Israel in protecting civilians in combat zones. "Israeli military’s own data indicates civilian death rate of 83% in Gaza war" - https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2025/aug/21/revealed-israeli-militarys-own-data-indicates-civilian-death-rate-of-83-in-gaza-war https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2025/aug/21...
- jameshilliard 9mo ago
  > "Israeli military’s own data indicates civilian death rate of 83% in Gaza war" The way they came up with this 83% figure is insane, they are essentially claiming everyone killed that hasn't been identified as a named fighter in one specific Israeli military intelligence database is assumed to be a civilian, this logic is of course blatantly misleading as one would not expect Israel to have the capability to identify the name of each and every enemy combatant in a war zone. On top of that the total number killed is a figure published by the Hamas run Gaza Health Ministry which is well known to have major accuracy issues.
  - LorenPechtel 9mo ago
    You only are identifying half the problem. That list was of those both identified to be terrorist and identified to be dead. Thus, not only does it not count the unidentified dead but it also does not count the identified but not established to be terrorist.

it_learnses 9mo ago

[dead]