4 ms·

This identity verification business for porn sites is a nightmare for privacy. Will just result in more personal info being hacked and blackmail given the subje

This identity verification business for porn sites is a nightmare for privacy. Will just result in more personal info being hacked and blackmail given the subject matter.

TZubiri 9mo ago
A novel approach would be to verify age and then discard identity records, which is standard in the brick and mortar equivalents like bars.
- mixmastamyk 9mo ago
  One place tried to scan my id recently. Hopefully others will speak up against it but I am not optimistic.
  - PeterHolzwarth 9mo ago
    This is why I don't by alcohol online for delivery: the delivery person is required by their company to scan my ID. Places I order from already know enough about me - they don't also need a copy of my identification.
    - BrenBarn 9mo ago
      Interesting. I order alcohol online and have never had that happen.
      - arthurfm 9mo ago
        In the UK all delivery apps [0][1][2] will prompt the driver/rider to ask for ID when the customer purchases age-restricted items like alcohol or cigarettes. I am not sure why the apps don't get the customer to upload a photo of their ID once rather than get the delivery person to request it for every restricted order? It wastes so much time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYEC_ooaC5A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYEC_ooaC5A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILzfEaSiYf4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILzfEaSiYf4 [0] https://riders.deliveroo.co.uk/en/delivering-alcohol https://riders.deliveroo.co.uk/en/delivering-alcohol [1] https://help.uber.com/en-GB/ubereats/restaurants/article/how-do-i-order-alcohol-on-uber-eats?nodeId=10fc02c8-9162-4e32-9c22-19464b6ddbec https://help.uber.com/en-GB/ubereats/restaurants/article/how... [2] https://courier-help.just-eat.co.uk/hc/en-gb/articles/10329003803549-Age-restricted-Items-delivery-FAQs https://courier-help.just-eat.co.uk/hc/en-gb/articles/103290...
        BrenBarn 9mo ago
        Well, yeah, they ask to see ID, but they don't scan it. (I'm in the US though.)
    - mindslight 9mo ago
      I bought a rackmount case on ebay that for some reason got shipped "Adult signature required", which is seemingly for alcohol shipments. The Fedex delivery guy repeatedly pestered me to scan my ID. I had already shown him my ID, signed for the package, and had possession of it. But he didn't speak English and couldn't understand me telling him we were done, so he just kept repeating "scan" and shoving the terminal at me. He also kept trying to steal the package back from me as if it hadn't been delivered, and I had to keep getting very aggressive to make him back off. He then insisted I speak to his supervisor on his phone (the ones who are now unreachable when you have a problem). The supervisor then continued badgering me about their policies and threatening to call the police (I told him go right ahead). Eventually they did give up and leave. No police ever showed up, and Fedex continues to deliver to me just fine. What an all around dystopian nightmare, though.
      - TZubiri 9mo ago
        >"He then insisted I speak to his supervisor on his phone (the ones who are now unreachable when you have a problem)" Soon, a chat only chatbot accessible through a widget on their app. Or worse a phone you call, but it's just an LLM with a TTS wrapped around it.
        mindslight 9mo ago
        I think much of it is just LLM/TTS at this point. But even well before then it was a call center agent who would put in a "ticket" for nobody to call you back.
      - ryandrake 9mo ago
        Couldn't most of that encounter have been avoided by just walking back inside your home with your package and closing the door? I don't understand why you'd even want to engage with someone like that.
        mindslight 9mo ago
        Maybe? But first, that's generally not how I operate. Second, just because I went back inside the house doesn't mean that the situation would magically be over - they'd still be outside, right? And I'd have to monitor them until they left. Third, it seems doing that would have encouraged them to pigeonhole the situation into the usual problem of "package getting stolen" for which they presumably do call the police and frame the situation that way. The police coming would then make for an escalated situation which I would have to deal with. Heck with the way police often defer to the status quo of how businesses frame problems, they might have even insisted I follow Fedex's desired procedure of scanning my ID despite it being legally unnecessary. One of the big problems here is companies deploying user-facing agents that can't even communicate in the common language. There is another driver whom I've tried a few times now simply to work with her to get packages delivered (eg I'll bring them in from the street because I'm in the middle of shoveling snow), but communication is needlessly difficult. I'm sure many of the destructionists are faced with similar frustrations and then go on to blame "illegals", as if purifying society will compensate for bad incentives. But as usual, it's actually the corpos pitting us against one another in a race to the bottom.
- ethin 9mo ago
  This doesn't work, because something still has to be stored (unless you like the idea of being nagged everywhere you go online (including just clicking links) to "verify your age"). That upends the entire "well it's just like verifying your age at a bar" idea.
  - LorenPechtel 9mo ago
    Session identity. You go to the verification website, your browser gets a token that you can use until you close your browser. But that doesn't expose the political opponents, it would not be accepted.
    - ethin 9mo ago
      I mean, this still wouldn't work. Mainly because people would categorically hate it. I mean, would you want to have to "prove" your an "adult" (whatever that happens to mean depending on where you are in the world) every time your session gets terminated? What about non-browser apps?
  - TZubiri 9mo ago
    Well I was originally thinking of a single bit "isVerified" But if you were reverified every time, that would be closer to the bar analogy. Although it does increase cybersecurity risk by repeated exposure.
- octoberfranklin 9mo ago
  Unfortunately no. In my state all the bars and nightclubs near colleges scan IDs and keep a copy. The fakes are so good now that the state basically admits they can't expect the bouncer to detect them. So they keep an image to prove "hey we tried our best".
cindyllm 9mo ago
[dead]
nine_k 9mo ago
I wonder why identity verification is even mentioned, when age verification is all that's needed.
- ronbenton 9mo ago
  That’s a good call out, I should be more careful with my words. Practically, I haven’t seen age verification implemented online without some kind of identify credential furnished. But I didn’t mean to imply some kind of IAL2 compliant identity assurance or something
- mindslight 9mo ago
  Because in an environment with personal computing devices and where consumer tech companies' primary business is surveillance, the two are equivalent. (Personal computing devices make it so anyone of a certain age can run software that proxies their credentials to another user (either for profit or activism), and the primacy of the surveillance business makes it so that third parties can never be trusted to mask your identity)
- LorenPechtel 9mo ago
  Because that's what it is really about. Whatever label you put on it, it's really about removing privacy.
- mlrtime 9mo ago
  Genuine question, how do you age verify without KYC? Do we have any real world examples where this exists?
  - linhns 9mo ago
    I works with KYC, there seems to be no viable way right now. I've heard discussions about using bone measurements similar to those used in sports to detect age cheaters.

This identity verification business for porn sites is a nightmare for privacy. Will just result in more personal info being hacked and blackmail given the subject matter.

TZubiri 9mo ago

A novel approach would be to verify age and then discard identity records, which is standard in the brick and mortar equivalents like bars.

mixmastamyk 9mo ago
One place tried to scan my id recently. Hopefully others will speak up against it but I am not optimistic.
- PeterHolzwarth 9mo ago
  This is why I don't by alcohol online for delivery: the delivery person is required by their company to scan my ID. Places I order from already know enough about me - they don't also need a copy of my identification.
  - BrenBarn 9mo ago
    Interesting. I order alcohol online and have never had that happen.
    - arthurfm 9mo ago
      In the UK all delivery apps [0][1][2] will prompt the driver/rider to ask for ID when the customer purchases age-restricted items like alcohol or cigarettes. I am not sure why the apps don't get the customer to upload a photo of their ID once rather than get the delivery person to request it for every restricted order? It wastes so much time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYEC_ooaC5A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYEC_ooaC5A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILzfEaSiYf4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILzfEaSiYf4 [0] https://riders.deliveroo.co.uk/en/delivering-alcohol https://riders.deliveroo.co.uk/en/delivering-alcohol [1] https://help.uber.com/en-GB/ubereats/restaurants/article/how-do-i-order-alcohol-on-uber-eats?nodeId=10fc02c8-9162-4e32-9c22-19464b6ddbec https://help.uber.com/en-GB/ubereats/restaurants/article/how... [2] https://courier-help.just-eat.co.uk/hc/en-gb/articles/10329003803549-Age-restricted-Items-delivery-FAQs https://courier-help.just-eat.co.uk/hc/en-gb/articles/103290...
      - BrenBarn 9mo ago
        Well, yeah, they ask to see ID, but they don't scan it. (I'm in the US though.)
  - mindslight 9mo ago
    I bought a rackmount case on ebay that for some reason got shipped "Adult signature required", which is seemingly for alcohol shipments. The Fedex delivery guy repeatedly pestered me to scan my ID. I had already shown him my ID, signed for the package, and had possession of it. But he didn't speak English and couldn't understand me telling him we were done, so he just kept repeating "scan" and shoving the terminal at me. He also kept trying to steal the package back from me as if it hadn't been delivered, and I had to keep getting very aggressive to make him back off. He then insisted I speak to his supervisor on his phone (the ones who are now unreachable when you have a problem). The supervisor then continued badgering me about their policies and threatening to call the police (I told him go right ahead). Eventually they did give up and leave. No police ever showed up, and Fedex continues to deliver to me just fine. What an all around dystopian nightmare, though.
    - TZubiri 9mo ago
      >"He then insisted I speak to his supervisor on his phone (the ones who are now unreachable when you have a problem)" Soon, a chat only chatbot accessible through a widget on their app. Or worse a phone you call, but it's just an LLM with a TTS wrapped around it.
      - mindslight 9mo ago
        I think much of it is just LLM/TTS at this point. But even well before then it was a call center agent who would put in a "ticket" for nobody to call you back.
    - ryandrake 9mo ago
      Couldn't most of that encounter have been avoided by just walking back inside your home with your package and closing the door? I don't understand why you'd even want to engage with someone like that.
      - mindslight 9mo ago
        Maybe? But first, that's generally not how I operate. Second, just because I went back inside the house doesn't mean that the situation would magically be over - they'd still be outside, right? And I'd have to monitor them until they left. Third, it seems doing that would have encouraged them to pigeonhole the situation into the usual problem of "package getting stolen" for which they presumably do call the police and frame the situation that way. The police coming would then make for an escalated situation which I would have to deal with. Heck with the way police often defer to the status quo of how businesses frame problems, they might have even insisted I follow Fedex's desired procedure of scanning my ID despite it being legally unnecessary. One of the big problems here is companies deploying user-facing agents that can't even communicate in the common language. There is another driver whom I've tried a few times now simply to work with her to get packages delivered (eg I'll bring them in from the street because I'm in the middle of shoveling snow), but communication is needlessly difficult. I'm sure many of the destructionists are faced with similar frustrations and then go on to blame "illegals", as if purifying society will compensate for bad incentives. But as usual, it's actually the corpos pitting us against one another in a race to the bottom.
ethin 9mo ago
This doesn't work, because something still has to be stored (unless you like the idea of being nagged everywhere you go online (including just clicking links) to "verify your age"). That upends the entire "well it's just like verifying your age at a bar" idea.
- LorenPechtel 9mo ago
  Session identity. You go to the verification website, your browser gets a token that you can use until you close your browser. But that doesn't expose the political opponents, it would not be accepted.
  - ethin 9mo ago
    I mean, this still wouldn't work. Mainly because people would categorically hate it. I mean, would you want to have to "prove" your an "adult" (whatever that happens to mean depending on where you are in the world) every time your session gets terminated? What about non-browser apps?
- TZubiri 9mo ago
  Well I was originally thinking of a single bit "isVerified" But if you were reverified every time, that would be closer to the bar analogy. Although it does increase cybersecurity risk by repeated exposure.
octoberfranklin 9mo ago
Unfortunately no. In my state all the bars and nightclubs near colleges scan IDs and keep a copy. The fakes are so good now that the state basically admits they can't expect the bouncer to detect them. So they keep an image to prove "hey we tried our best".

cindyllm 9mo ago

[dead]

nine_k 9mo ago

I wonder why identity verification is even mentioned, when age verification is all that's needed.

ronbenton 9mo ago
That’s a good call out, I should be more careful with my words. Practically, I haven’t seen age verification implemented online without some kind of identify credential furnished. But I didn’t mean to imply some kind of IAL2 compliant identity assurance or something
mindslight 9mo ago
Because in an environment with personal computing devices and where consumer tech companies' primary business is surveillance, the two are equivalent. (Personal computing devices make it so anyone of a certain age can run software that proxies their credentials to another user (either for profit or activism), and the primacy of the surveillance business makes it so that third parties can never be trusted to mask your identity)
LorenPechtel 9mo ago
Because that's what it is really about. Whatever label you put on it, it's really about removing privacy.
mlrtime 9mo ago
Genuine question, how do you age verify without KYC? Do we have any real world examples where this exists?
- linhns 9mo ago
  I works with KYC, there seems to be no viable way right now. I've heard discussions about using bone measurements similar to those used in sports to detect age cheaters.