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This is always said as if the buggy whip maker successfully transitioned to some new job. Please show me 10 actual examples of individuals in 1880 that successf

This is always said as if the buggy whip maker successfully transitioned to some new job. Please show me 10 actual examples of individuals in 1880 that successfully adapted to new jobs after the industrial revolution destroyed their old one, and what their life looked like before and after. 'Sure the 1880 start of the industrial revolution sucked, all the way through the end of WW2, but then we figured out jobs and middle class for a short time, so it doesn't matter you personally are being put at the 1880 starting point, because the 1950s had jobs'. Huh?

satvikpendem 10mo ago
Do you think those people just starved to death? They had to find other jobs and they did. Now I'm sure I could find you 10 such examples if I trawl through historical records for a few hours but I'm not going to waste my time like that on New Year's Eve. Why are you constructing a strawman in your second paragraph? No one said or even implied that, you just made up your own quote you're attacking for something reason?
- _DeadFred_ 10mo ago
  People imply that the jobs shakeup will 'work itself out', but tend to imply that working out looks like post WW2, when in reality we are at 1880 level change that took decades to 'work itself out' and working itself out included in 2 world wars during that time.
  - satvikpendem 10mo ago
    No one is waiting 70 years to work itself out, you're operating on a false premise that I don't even know where it comes from, people were not starving jobless for 70 years straight. Like I said, people found other jobs, within a decade span at most of their occupation being automated.
    - _DeadFred_ 10mo ago
      People definitely were starving and looking for work at the start of the industrial revolution. Your response is why what I said isn't a strawman. Your response of 'trust me bro, it worked out' very much is. The economy/job/living situation in 1880-1940, the 'working through it' phase of the industrial revolution, was very shitty and nothing like post WW2. Tramps/homeless/tramp camps was a part of life. Huge groups of men lived in 'boarding houses' their entire lives. Most people today don't even know what boarding houses were. There were huge populations that traveled as migrant field workers. The reality looked much different than post WW2 employment. Sure you said people found other jobs. But really, lots of people didn't. Or didn't find jobs that allowed them to live outside boarding houses and have families. There is a whole big picture waved away with 'found jobs' that implies post WW2 jobs/lifestyles, when in fact that is not what happened post industrial revolution, and did not happen until much later, and was not guaranteed to happen ever. Ratelimited so editing: People handweaving away legitimate fears with 'people found new work' are implying it is on the level/quality of life. My 'strawman' is pointing out their 'found new work' was shittier work and a shittier life and that the handwaving/minimizing peoples fears with such a hollow statement is bullshit and should be called out as such. 'found new work' is nothing more than 'people didn't all die'.
      - satvikpendem 10mo ago
        > There is a whole big picture waved away with 'found jobs' that implies post WW2 jobs/lifestyles No, you are the only one implying this, no one said anything about this which is why I said it is a strawman. I said nothing about the quality of work found, only that new work was found. That may or may not be the case for today's situation, no one can know and I am not in the business of prognosticating so.
wholinator2 10mo ago
I don't have a dog in this disagreement, but putting the bar at "dig up the personal details of 10 different individual people and the changing dynamics of their lives over decades _starting from 1880_" is a pretty insane ask I'd imagine. How many resources for reliable and accurate longitudinal case studies from the 19th century are there really? I suppose we could read a couple dozen books written around then but that's just making a satisfactory reply so prohibitively time intensive as to be impossible.
- satvikpendem 10mo ago
  Indeed, and when 10 were pulled up by zozbot234, they say that doesn't count. This sort of discussion is not really useful in my eyes, shifting goalposts around and not saying what one means.
zozbot234 10mo ago
1. Samuel Slater: Textile mill worker → Factory founder Before: Born to a modest family in England, Slater worked as an apprentice in a textile mill, learning the mechanics of spinning frames. After: In 1790 he emigrated to the United States, where he introduced British‑style water‑powered textile machinery, earning the nickname "Father of the American Industrial Revolution." He built the first successful cotton‑spinning mill in Rhode Island and became a wealthy industrialist. 2. Ellen Swallow Richards: Teacher → Pioneering chemist and sanitary engineer Before: Taught school in Massachusetts while supporting her family after her father's death. After: Enrolled at MIT (the first woman admitted), earned a chemistry degree, and applied scientific methods to public health, founding the first school of home economics and influencing water‑quality standards. 3. Frederick Winslow Taylor: Machinist → Scientific management consultant Before: Trained as a mechanical engineer and worked on the shop floor of a steel plant, witnessing chaotic production practices. After: Developed Taylorism, a systematic approach to labor efficiency, consulting for major firms and publishing The Principles of Scientific Management (1911), reshaping industrial labor organization. 4. John D. Rockefeller: Small‑scale merchant → Oil magnate Before: Ran a modest produce‑selling business in Cleveland, Ohio, struggling after the Panic of 1873 reduced local demand. After: Invested in the nascent petroleum industry, founded Standard Oil in 1870, and built a monopoly that made him the wealthiest person of his era. 5. Clara Barton: Teacher & clerk → Humanitarian nurse Before: Worked as a schoolteacher and later as a clerk for the U.S. Patent Office, earning a modest living. After: Volunteered as a nurse during the Civil War, later founding the American Red Cross in 1881, turning her wartime experience into a lifelong career in disaster relief. 6. Andrew Carnegie: Factory apprentice → Steel tycoon Before: Began as a bobbin boy in a cotton factory in Scotland, later emigrating to the U.S. and working as a telegraph messenger. After: Invested in railroads and iron, eventually creating Carnegie Steel Company (1901), becoming a leading philanthropist after retiring. 7. Lillian M. N. Stevens: Seamstress → Temperance leader Before: Earned a living sewing garments in a New England workshop, a trade threatened by mechanized clothing factories. After: Joined the Woman's Christian Temperance Union, rising to national president (1898‑1914) and influencing social reform legislation. 8. George Pullman: Cabinet‑maker → Railroad car innovator Before: Trained as a carpenter, making furniture for a small New England firm that struggled as railroads expanded. After: Designed and manufactured luxury sleeping cars, founding the Pullman Company (1867) and creating a model industrial town for his workers. 9. Mary Elizabeth Garrett: Schoolteacher → Medical education reformer Before: Taught at a private academy in Baltimore, earning a modest salary. After: Used her inheritance to fund the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine (1893), insisting on admission of women and establishing the first women’s medical school in the U.S. 10. Henry Ford: Farmhand → Automobile pioneer Before: Worked on his family farm in Michigan and later as an apprentice machinist, facing limited prospects as agriculture mechanized. After: Built the Ford Motor Company (1903) and introduced the moving‑assembly line (1913), making automobiles affordable for the masses.
brailsafe 10mo ago
I agree, but I do wonder if because those times were generally less specialized, urbanized, etc.. it would have been more possible to simply pivot to another non-specialized "job", because you were either uneducated and poor and needed to be able to do everything, or born rich and able to do the one special thing your whole life. Like when the buggy whip maker couldn't sell whips anymore, they just did 4 of the other jobs they had to do anyway. The classic old person advice is to just walk in somewhere, give the owner a stern handshake, and you got a job, and if that job could pay your mortgage, then problem solved. Whereas now, to become a buggy whip maker (or whatever), we've developed yhe expectation that you go to school for 4 years and start out at the bottom of the income ladder. If the income we need to pay for the basics (which admittedly are different) requires a lifetime of experience, then it's impossible to pivot

satvikpendem 10mo ago

Do you think those people just starved to death? They had to find other jobs and they did. Now I'm sure I could find you 10 such examples if I trawl through historical records for a few hours but I'm not going to waste my time like that on New Year's Eve. Why are you constructing a strawman in your second paragraph? No one said or even implied that, you just made up your own quote you're attacking for something reason?

_DeadFred_ 10mo ago
People imply that the jobs shakeup will 'work itself out', but tend to imply that working out looks like post WW2, when in reality we are at 1880 level change that took decades to 'work itself out' and working itself out included in 2 world wars during that time.
- satvikpendem 10mo ago
  No one is waiting 70 years to work itself out, you're operating on a false premise that I don't even know where it comes from, people were not starving jobless for 70 years straight. Like I said, people found other jobs, within a decade span at most of their occupation being automated.
  - _DeadFred_ 10mo ago
    People definitely were starving and looking for work at the start of the industrial revolution. Your response is why what I said isn't a strawman. Your response of 'trust me bro, it worked out' very much is. The economy/job/living situation in 1880-1940, the 'working through it' phase of the industrial revolution, was very shitty and nothing like post WW2. Tramps/homeless/tramp camps was a part of life. Huge groups of men lived in 'boarding houses' their entire lives. Most people today don't even know what boarding houses were. There were huge populations that traveled as migrant field workers. The reality looked much different than post WW2 employment. Sure you said people found other jobs. But really, lots of people didn't. Or didn't find jobs that allowed them to live outside boarding houses and have families. There is a whole big picture waved away with 'found jobs' that implies post WW2 jobs/lifestyles, when in fact that is not what happened post industrial revolution, and did not happen until much later, and was not guaranteed to happen ever. Ratelimited so editing: People handweaving away legitimate fears with 'people found new work' are implying it is on the level/quality of life. My 'strawman' is pointing out their 'found new work' was shittier work and a shittier life and that the handwaving/minimizing peoples fears with such a hollow statement is bullshit and should be called out as such. 'found new work' is nothing more than 'people didn't all die'.
    - satvikpendem 10mo ago
      > There is a whole big picture waved away with 'found jobs' that implies post WW2 jobs/lifestyles No, you are the only one implying this, no one said anything about this which is why I said it is a strawman. I said nothing about the quality of work found, only that new work was found. That may or may not be the case for today's situation, no one can know and I am not in the business of prognosticating so.

wholinator2 10mo ago

I don't have a dog in this disagreement, but putting the bar at "dig up the personal details of 10 different individual people and the changing dynamics of their lives over decades _starting from 1880_" is a pretty insane ask I'd imagine. How many resources for reliable and accurate longitudinal case studies from the 19th century are there really? I suppose we could read a couple dozen books written around then but that's just making a satisfactory reply so prohibitively time intensive as to be impossible.

satvikpendem 10mo ago
Indeed, and when 10 were pulled up by zozbot234, they say that doesn't count. This sort of discussion is not really useful in my eyes, shifting goalposts around and not saying what one means.

zozbot234 10mo ago

1. Samuel Slater: Textile mill worker → Factory founder Before: Born to a modest family in England, Slater worked as an apprentice in a textile mill, learning the mechanics of spinning frames. After: In 1790 he emigrated to the United States, where he introduced British‑style water‑powered textile machinery, earning the nickname "Father of the American Industrial Revolution." He built the first successful cotton‑spinning mill in Rhode Island and became a wealthy industrialist. 2. Ellen Swallow Richards: Teacher → Pioneering chemist and sanitary engineer Before: Taught school in Massachusetts while supporting her family after her father's death. After: Enrolled at MIT (the first woman admitted), earned a chemistry degree, and applied scientific methods to public health, founding the first school of home economics and influencing water‑quality standards. 3. Frederick Winslow Taylor: Machinist → Scientific management consultant Before: Trained as a mechanical engineer and worked on the shop floor of a steel plant, witnessing chaotic production practices. After: Developed Taylorism, a systematic approach to labor efficiency, consulting for major firms and publishing The Principles of Scientific Management (1911), reshaping industrial labor organization. 4. John D. Rockefeller: Small‑scale merchant → Oil magnate Before: Ran a modest produce‑selling business in Cleveland, Ohio, struggling after the Panic of 1873 reduced local demand. After: Invested in the nascent petroleum industry, founded Standard Oil in 1870, and built a monopoly that made him the wealthiest person of his era. 5. Clara Barton: Teacher & clerk → Humanitarian nurse Before: Worked as a schoolteacher and later as a clerk for the U.S. Patent Office, earning a modest living. After: Volunteered as a nurse during the Civil War, later founding the American Red Cross in 1881, turning her wartime experience into a lifelong career in disaster relief. 6. Andrew Carnegie: Factory apprentice → Steel tycoon Before: Began as a bobbin boy in a cotton factory in Scotland, later emigrating to the U.S. and working as a telegraph messenger. After: Invested in railroads and iron, eventually creating Carnegie Steel Company (1901), becoming a leading philanthropist after retiring. 7. Lillian M. N. Stevens: Seamstress → Temperance leader Before: Earned a living sewing garments in a New England workshop, a trade threatened by mechanized clothing factories. After: Joined the Woman's Christian Temperance Union, rising to national president (1898‑1914) and influencing social reform legislation. 8. George Pullman: Cabinet‑maker → Railroad car innovator Before: Trained as a carpenter, making furniture for a small New England firm that struggled as railroads expanded. After: Designed and manufactured luxury sleeping cars, founding the Pullman Company (1867) and creating a model industrial town for his workers. 9. Mary Elizabeth Garrett: Schoolteacher → Medical education reformer Before: Taught at a private academy in Baltimore, earning a modest salary. After: Used her inheritance to fund the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine (1893), insisting on admission of women and establishing the first women’s medical school in the U.S. 10. Henry Ford: Farmhand → Automobile pioneer Before: Worked on his family farm in Michigan and later as an apprentice machinist, facing limited prospects as agriculture mechanized. After: Built the Ford Motor Company (1903) and introduced the moving‑assembly line (1913), making automobiles affordable for the masses.

brailsafe 10mo ago

I agree, but I do wonder if because those times were generally less specialized, urbanized, etc.. it would have been more possible to simply pivot to another non-specialized "job", because you were either uneducated and poor and needed to be able to do everything, or born rich and able to do the one special thing your whole life. Like when the buggy whip maker couldn't sell whips anymore, they just did 4 of the other jobs they had to do anyway. The classic old person advice is to just walk in somewhere, give the owner a stern handshake, and you got a job, and if that job could pay your mortgage, then problem solved. Whereas now, to become a buggy whip maker (or whatever), we've developed yhe expectation that you go to school for 4 years and start out at the bottom of the income ladder. If the income we need to pay for the basics (which admittedly are different) requires a lifetime of experience, then it's impossible to pivot