20 ms·

Sugar, acid and teeth (2009)

165 points by jondot 14y ago

gdw2 14y ago
My dentist explained it this way: Bacteria eats sugar and pees acid.
jws 14y ago
Where "worst" is defined by a function of pH and sugar content pulled out of the air by a dentist.
- skylan_q 14y ago
  It's a very, very simplistic view of dental health. There's much more to it than what comes into contact with your teeth.
- dasil003 14y ago
  How do you know the dentist pulled it out of thin air? A dentist would seem to have a decent likelihood of being familiar with the science.
  - skylan_q 14y ago
    If the dentist is being scientific, it's up to him to back up his claims about sugar and acid being the most (or only) important indicators for what's bad for teeth. EDIT: For example, there's been some interesting work discussed here: http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.ca/2009/03/reversing-tooth-decay.html http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.ca/2009/03/reversing-tooth...
    - dasil003 14y ago
      I was just suggesting that the dentist might be familiar with the best science we have directly or indirectly, not even that he was acting scientifically per se.
    - scott_s 14y ago
      If you do some googling, it's commonly accepted that both sugar and acid are bad for your teeth, with plenty of justification. Some of the reasons are even covered in the article. You're correct in that their classification of "worst" only applies if sugar and acidity are the most important factors. But they're clearly a large factor in tooth decay, so measuring the contents of various liquids and comparing them to each other is instructive.
      - JabavuAdams 14y ago
        > But they're clearly a large factor in tooth decay Maybe, maybe not. The in-vivo environment might have many significant differences than some in-vitro setup. What's the role of saliva? of bacteria? of genetics? Don't underestimate the power of the telephone game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_whispers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_whispers). You need to go back to primary sources. It's very common for papers in software engineering, for instance, to confuse qualitative statements from earlier papers with empirical results.
- cmatteri 14y ago
  Their function 10^(5.5-pH) * (mg/cl sugar + 1) does seem to imply that sugar and acidity have a synergistic effect, where the +1 in the sugar term is a hack to keep the result from being 0 if the sugar is 0. This doesn't make sense, as a modest increase in sugar, say from 0 to 1 would double the result regardless of the pH.
  - SoftwareMaven 14y ago
    What the equation says to me is that acidity sets the stage for tooth damage, but as bad as that is, once you start feeding the bacteria in that set stage, you are in real trouble. However, the entire article is a hypothesis. It is a best guess by somebody with scientific knowledge, but there is no reason to believe the real formula shouldn't be 10^(5.5-ph)+10(mg/cl sugar) or something completely different. However, my son and daughter both need a science fair project soon. I wonder if there is a way to formalize this a little.
    - xaa 14y ago
      How about the following: 1. Find a substance that is chemically tooth-like 2. Split it into predefined volumes (little cubes or spheres) 3. Add the beverage and saliva to the "tooth", wait a month, and measure the decrease in "tooth" volume. 4. Use regression to estimate the coefficients for sugar, pH, and whatever else.
      - lotsofpulp 14y ago
        You would be missing the bacteria, which are essential.
  - Royal 14y ago
    Their function also improves the results if the drink is more basic. A drink with a pH of 13 would have an amazing score on here. If you normalize the pH above 5.5 since it has "little to no effect" things on the lower end of the results are better, with milk being worse than water, and chocolate milk being worse than milk.
- squarecat 14y ago
  Seems having only a dentist on hand for that "experiment" is akin to having a mechanic as your only expert for analyzing a car wreck? As the author even concedes, an abundance of anecdotes is not evidence. Was it so hard to find a chemist way back in aught-9? (Go down to the nearest uni and find a chem major at least...) The wide distribution of oversimplified, media-sanitized, pseudo-science is likely one of the affectations of Western culture that has kept it from progressing further for a solid 60 years--since television gave the ability for snake oil salesmen to multiply their effectiveness. The internet exponentially increased that ability.
casca 14y ago
Interesting, but their choice of weighting of sugar and pH is not based on any evidence. Also, would the amount of time that the drink is in contact with your teeth not have an impact? Perhaps wine would have more of an impact because you might keep it in your mouth longer, offset by the small likelihood you you drinking as much of it?
- bmelton 14y ago
  Similarly, I read something recently (no link, sorry) that stated something like the following (poorly paraphrased): Juice is fine to drink as it's generally healthy, but if you're going to drink it, do so quickly instead of sipping on it for long periods. The premise being exactly what you surmised, that chugging a small glass of OJ is much better for your teeth than sipping it and putting your teeth into contact with it for so much longer.
  - scott_s 14y ago
    It may be better for your teeth, but I wonder if chugging it will spike your insulin more.
    - bmelton 14y ago
      That was kind of the same question I had when I read it, but I came to the (completely uninformed) conclusion that probably, the body's absorption rate was self-metering enough that it probably wouldn't make a difference drinking it all at once vs. drinking it over a 20 minute period. I have absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support this however, so who knows?
      - carey 14y ago
        Fructose is metabolised by the liver, which may only be able to handle so much at a time without negative effects. Raw fruit is digested more slowly than juice due its fibre content, so drinking juice slowly could be worse for your teeth but better for your liver. Even modern raw fruit are significantly larger and sweeter than a few hundred years ago, so maybe we should just stick to berries.
davidw 14y ago
I didn't get the impression they looked at serving size. In other words, the Merlot's average serving size is smaller than that of the Guiness, even though the latter is "better".
- pre 14y ago
  I wonder how much serving size would even matter? I'm told the damage comes after the drink really, when your teeth sit around covered in it. I'm sure it'd make some difference, it takes longer to drink a pint than a shot there'll be a bigger concentration there during those initial minutes, but I doubt it'd be linearly proportional. I'd guessed a red-wine. My dentist certainly goes on about my drinking booze more than me downing Ribena by the pint. I wonder if alcohol can have some unmeasured effect apart from sugar content and PH.
nealabq 14y ago
One hears that Bulimia and certain drug addictions (Crack, Meth) are very bad for your teeth. Bulimia because of the strong acid, and drugs because they interfere with the mouth's self-cleaning instinct. I'd guess the best teeth live in a mouth with: 1. Active high-volume saliva glands 2. A population of healthy bacteria How do you encourage that?
- jbigelow76 14y ago
  How about encourage them not to become crack heads or bulimics in the first place? It's a strategy that probably has benefits beyond mere dental health.
- Alex3917 14y ago
  The reason why amphetamines are bad for your teeth is that they prevent your mouth from making saliva, which allows bacteria to multiply and causes other bad things to happen as well. Obviously it's probably not a good idea to be using meth in the first place, but if you're going to use any sort of drug that causes dry mouth then at the very least you should brush, floss, and use mouthwash and flouride rinse beforehand.
hnriot 14y ago
This should not be so much surprise to anyone really. It's pretty widely known that sugar and acids are bad for your teeth. The degree to which any drink with these contributes to dental damage is probably more complicated but everyone knows that its best to drink water. Not only will it not ruin your teeth but it will also not make you fat, like sodas and juice boxes.
steve8918 14y ago
I have deep grooves in my teeth right above my gums on both sides of my mouth from drinking 3-6 cokes a day for 10+ years. For some reason, I have a habit of swishing the drinks on the bottom of my mouth and I think this is the reason why my teeth are so jacked up. In the past year, I've largely stopped drinking Coke, partly because of this, and because of the other health problems associated with drinking so much soft drinks. I've switched to water and have a sugary drink maybe once or twice a week.
- peterwwillis 14y ago
  Besides being bad for your teeth it's a nightmare on your body. That insulin dump from the onslaught of sugar will make you much more likely to develop diabetes, and some studies have shown a long-term metabolic effect where your body prefers sugars for energy instead of fats. That and the empty calories will lop-side your diet and make it harder to lose weight or gain muscle. There are lots of ways you can drink something tasty and not have such a huge impact on your body. Sometimes i'll buy a two-liter of green tea ginger ale or cranberry juice, and make a 50/50 or 25/75 mix of the drink and tap water. You can also just cold-brew tea or coffee and mix in a little sweetener or other flavor to change it up. It's cheaper than soda and (after you stop drinking soda every day) tastes much better because you're not getting hit over the head with truckloads of sugars. Ask a European about how sweet all our foods and drinks are.
  - steve8918 14y ago
    I 100% agree. Actually I have done almost exactly that, switched to tea, or ice tea. I'm not completely off the sugary drinks, but I'll drink things like Honest Tea with a lot less sugar than Coke, or just plain Tea. The thing I'm actually most worried about is pancreatic cancer. I'm not even sure if there's a link between that and soft drinks, but I read one study where having 2-3 soft drinks a week doubled your risk of getting it. Well I was having 20 a week, which scared the crap out of me. And more and more people appear to be contracting and dying of it, so it's my secret fear.
    - kokey 14y ago
brianbreslin 14y ago
My uncle who is a dentist told me i got loads of cavities from gatorade. His rationale aside from the high sugar content was that because I was exercising, my mouth was drying out w/the gatorade residue in it. So the sugars eat away at your teeth faster. So there is that factor to weigh in as well (how your mouth is reacting at the time of the liquid consumption, or post consumption residue).
eaurouge 14y ago
Interested in hearing what people think of Xylitol and its positive effects on saliva pH.
- beagle3 14y ago
  Xylitol's major positive effects on teeth health come from a different path: The bacteria responsible for cavities will try to eat it (cause it's close enough to sugar) but fail to digest it (cause it isn't), which will interfere with their ability to prosper and even kill them. (Unfortunately, that's also true for dogs: DO NOT feed your dog xylitol. It is toxic for them: two xylitol-swettened gums are potentially enough to kill a small dog, and cause irreversible damage to larger dogs!) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xylitol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xylitol is a treasure trove
  - ericd 14y ago
    That sounds like something I don't want to be eating either, if it's so toxic to both bacteria and fairly similar mammals. Have there been any long term xylitol studies? It seems likely that it would screw with the bacteria in one's gut.
    - beagle3 14y ago
      I don't know specifically about bacteria in one's gut, and hadn't thought of that. However, studies of xylitol in both humans and rats all show overwhelming positive (and mostly unexpected) results related to immunity to diseases like respiratory infections and ear infections. > something I don't want to be eating either, if it's so toxic to both bacteria and fairly similar mammals. FYI: Chocolate is toxic to dogs as well; a 70% chocolate bar can kill a small dog. Are you going to abstain from chocolate and recommend everyone else does too? Also: some humans are deathly allergic to nuts, and others to strawberries, and yet others to wheat gluten. These people are a lot closer to you genetically than a dog. Enough research has been done on xylitol to deem it safe for human use -- much more so than e.g. sucralose (Splenda), acesulfame-K (SweetOne), Aspartame (NutraSweet) and High Fructose Corn Syrup. And while Xylitol does not form naturally, it is a sugar alochol like e.g. Sorbitol (also found in plums and apples), and shares the vast majority of its properties. Really, do read the wikipedia entry.
myhf 14y ago
Wow, I never realized Diet Coke was less acidic than Diet Dr Pepper.
deltaqueue 14y ago
I wish he would have provided more explanation behind the dentist's algorithm. Here's an actual study measuring enamel loss, which seems much more definitive: http://faculty.philau.edu/ashleyj/General%20Dentistry%20Article.pdf http://faculty.philau.edu/ashleyj/General%20Dentistry%20Arti... Perhaps the most important snippet: Regression analysis indicated no correlation between enamel dissolution and beverage pH (r = 0.477, p > 0.05); in addition, the enamel dissolution showed no difference (p > 0.05) between the regular and diet versions of cola and non-cola beverages from the same manufacturer (Fig. 2 and 3). It was noted that the enamel dissolution was similar for all cola drinks over the 14-day test period (approximately 3.0 mg/cm2). And again: The data suggest that enamel aggressivity is determined by beverage composition rather than by beverage pH.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- nathanb 14y ago
  Or how about experimental science? Get some human teeth (probably not difficult or expensive for a dentist), weigh them, plunk them in each liquid, let them sit for a week, see which ones lost the most mass. Obviously scientific rigor would require several experiments to smooth out the variances in individual tooth quality and original composition, but it seems like that would come to a more definitive conclusion.
  - napillo 14y ago
    Did you RTFA? That's what they did.
  - splat 14y ago
    I think the presence of saliva has a major effect on inhibiting tooth decay. I'm not sure how applicable in vitro experiments would be.
    - fusiongyro 14y ago
      It would give us a new hypothesis to test, and if it turns out to be wrong, it would tell us a lot about saliva, don't you think?
solox3 14y ago
To couple pH with 'badness', you need to couple it with volume. It takes less effort to neutralize 1L of pH3 stuff than 10L of pH4 stuff.
stuaxo 14y ago
Hm, but what about the effect of the bacteria consuming said drinks; surely this will change the results ?
tocomment 14y ago
I've never understood if sugar affects gum disease. Does anyone know? Does the gum disease bacteria eat sugar or directly eat your teeth and gums? I tried looking it up once but I only found information about sugar and cavities.
- artemus 14y ago
  Bacteria consume sugar, which produces acid as a waste-product, which erodes enamel. Gum disease is primarily an inflammatory response to the presence of external irritants like dental plaque (which contains bacteria as well).
  - tocomment 14y ago
    So there's no specific gum disease bacteria? It's just the same bacteria that causes cavities?
    - artemus 14y ago
      According to Feng & Weinberg: Approximately 500 bacterial species reside in the oral cavity. Of these, 415 species are estimated to be present in subgingival plaque. Specifically: "A. actinomycetemcomitans has been strongly implicated in localized aggressive (juvenile) periodontitis Likewise, bacteria such as P. gingivalis, A. actinomycetemcomitans, Tannerella forsythia (formerly, Bacteroides forsythus), Treponema denticola, and Eikenella corrodens have been associated with chronic (adult) periodontitis." Ref: http://www.perioimplantelsalvador.com/Informacion/bibliografia/periodontal_tissues_role_bact.pdf http://www.perioimplantelsalvador.com/Informacion/bibliograf...
kokey 14y ago
From a very basic investigation by myself, I have found whiskey and water to be the alcoholic drink that's the least acidic.
nsxwolf 14y ago
As a child, my dentist also warned me about Mountain Dew and gave a specific reason - the presence of ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid (EDTA), used as a stabilizer. His theory was that it would chelate the calcium out of your tooth enamel. Sounds like a bit of dentist lore that gets passed around. Maybe because they use EDTA during root canals to prep the area.
- alphadogg 14y ago
  EDTA is in many drinks and foods, not just Mountain Dew.
JabavuAdams 14y ago
So a cookie should be much worse than any sugary drink. Basically, if you eat more than 0 sweets per day, it seems ridiculous to worry about sugary drinks. If you get a raspberry seed stuck between your teeth, it should be much worse than a sugary drink. Is there some coating effect I'm missing?
njs12345 14y ago
There's some effort underway to develop a vaccine against dental caries: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caries_vaccine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caries_vaccine
- nemo1618 14y ago
  Indeed, there are some very exciting prospects here. The replacement therapy seems most promising. I developed a number of cavities out of the blue after I began aggressively using mouthwash - my theory is that I had a mostly benevolent strain of bacteria and accidentally killed them off, and they were eventually replaced with a nastier strain. If a harmless strain could be administered through vaccine or chewing gum, the societal effects would be enormous. Seems like the largest problem left (as usual, sadly) is getting it out of the lab.
tocomment 14y ago
Hmm, this makes me wonder; should a low carb diet help cure gum disease and prevent cavities since you're providing so little sugar to the bacteria? In fact do you need to brush and floss when on a low carb diet? Has this been studied?
dollarpizza 14y ago
So where do coffee, espresso, & teas (black, green) fit into his Harm Matrix?
- jarek 14y ago
  Depends how much sugar you put into them.
barcoder 14y ago
"To mitigate the effects of pop consumption, only consume it with meals. Brush soon after eating or drinking anything besides water (including milk or juices)." Brushing soon after drinking or eating something sugary is not a good idea. Best to wait around 30 minutes and let your body clean your teeth during that time, after the 30 minutes manually clean! http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/21/really-never-brush-your-teeth-immediately-after-a-meal/ http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/21/really-never-brush-... http://www.hindustantimes.com/Entertainment/Wellness/Brushing-within-30-minutes-after-meal-can-damage-teeth/Article1-866236.aspx http://www.hindustantimes.com/Entertainment/Wellness/Brushin...
shalmanese 14y ago
Have there been any studies on whether drinking with a straw is better than drinking from a cup/bottle?
magoon 14y ago
Root beer is the best soda (pop) for your teeth because it isn't acidic.
humdumb 14y ago
Bacteria vs. Human body^1. 1. Specifically, teeth and saliva, but you must always consider the whole organism. Drink soda pop --> Advantage, Bacteria. Don't drink soda pop. --> What do you think? Bacteria need acidic conditions and they are happy to have plenty of sugar. Preserving your teeth means giving your body the best possible chance against bacteria, slowing the process of decay as much as you can. But in the end, on every front, bacteria will always win. It's just a matter of time. If they don't consume you while you're alive, they will after you're dead. With respect to tooth decay, drinking soft drinks surely helps bacteria, not the human body. But then, maybe people derive other benefits from drinking these concoctions. (Jolt?) Maybe preserving their teeth is not their number one priority? Factoid: George Washington had wooden teeth?
Detrus 14y ago
I never drink any sugary juices or candy. Eat lots of fruits and veggies, also bread, milk and nuts. And I have terrible tooth decay. Seems a bit silly to compare pHs of various junk foods. Drinking a better pH won't make much difference. The problem is a tad more complicated.
- beagle3 14y ago
  I had terrible tooth decay when I was younger (I have 16 fillings from ages 10-20). And then, all of a sudden - nothing. I haven't had a hole or a problem since (except for a filling that broke and had to be replaced). There was nothing that I'm aware of that I changed around that time -- I stopped drinking sodas and eating junk food around age 30. But I have recently read claims (and testimonials) that what you need for healthy teeth is Vitamin D (make sure you take it in the morning if you do!) and Vitamin K2, see e.g. http://www.thedentalessentials.com/The_role_of_vitamin_k2_on_tooth_decay_s/29.htm http://www.thedentalessentials.com/The_role_of_vitamin_k2_on... ; If you find this interesting, you'll find a lot more similar stuff on the bulletproof executive forums.
dhughes 14y ago
I can't see how second best sorbitol and the best being Xylitol are any better than sugar they're sugar alcohols which have the effects of a laxitive. How about just not eating so much sugar, and if you're diabetic try stevia that's what my mother, a diabetic, chooses.
baseh 14y ago
Thats it. I am switching to Spartan Lower 1/2% milk
jtlienws 14y ago
If you must drinks harmful to teeth, It would make sense to me to use a straw, and put the straw deep in you mouth so that the liquid does not come in contact with the teeth.
jtlienws 14y ago
If you must drinks harmful to teeth, It would make sense to me to use a straw, and put the straw deep in you mouth so that the liquid does not come in contact with the teeth.
photorized 14y ago
Genetics.
rcxb 14y ago
With "skeptic" in the name, I was expecting much, much better. It's a pretty bland application of some rule-of-thumb (perhaps, dogmatic) beliefs about tooth decay, which doesn't hold up to reality. One of the problems which comes to mind is that mouth wash has NEVER proven effective in preventing tooth decay (and companies that make Scope, Listerene and others would really LOVE to be able to say that it does). Meanwhile, this article blindly asserts that they will work quite well. This issue throws every other claim into doubt, too, since the bacteria is claimed be be the sole cause of decay, and a mouth wash certainly could kill-off bacteria in the mouth. It seems tooth decay is a far more complex activity than the model used in this discussion.

165 points by jondot 14y ago

gdw2 14y ago

My dentist explained it this way: Bacteria eats sugar and pees acid.

jws 14y ago

Where "worst" is defined by a function of pH and sugar content pulled out of the air by a dentist.

skylan_q 14y ago
It's a very, very simplistic view of dental health. There's much more to it than what comes into contact with your teeth.
dasil003 14y ago
How do you know the dentist pulled it out of thin air? A dentist would seem to have a decent likelihood of being familiar with the science.
- skylan_q 14y ago
  If the dentist is being scientific, it's up to him to back up his claims about sugar and acid being the most (or only) important indicators for what's bad for teeth. EDIT: For example, there's been some interesting work discussed here: http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.ca/2009/03/reversing-tooth-decay.html http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.ca/2009/03/reversing-tooth...
  - dasil003 14y ago
    I was just suggesting that the dentist might be familiar with the best science we have directly or indirectly, not even that he was acting scientifically per se.
  - scott_s 14y ago
    If you do some googling, it's commonly accepted that both sugar and acid are bad for your teeth, with plenty of justification. Some of the reasons are even covered in the article. You're correct in that their classification of "worst" only applies if sugar and acidity are the most important factors. But they're clearly a large factor in tooth decay, so measuring the contents of various liquids and comparing them to each other is instructive.
    - JabavuAdams 14y ago
      > But they're clearly a large factor in tooth decay Maybe, maybe not. The in-vivo environment might have many significant differences than some in-vitro setup. What's the role of saliva? of bacteria? of genetics? Don't underestimate the power of the telephone game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_whispers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_whispers). You need to go back to primary sources. It's very common for papers in software engineering, for instance, to confuse qualitative statements from earlier papers with empirical results.
cmatteri 14y ago
Their function 10^(5.5-pH) * (mg/cl sugar + 1) does seem to imply that sugar and acidity have a synergistic effect, where the +1 in the sugar term is a hack to keep the result from being 0 if the sugar is 0. This doesn't make sense, as a modest increase in sugar, say from 0 to 1 would double the result regardless of the pH.
- SoftwareMaven 14y ago
  What the equation says to me is that acidity sets the stage for tooth damage, but as bad as that is, once you start feeding the bacteria in that set stage, you are in real trouble. However, the entire article is a hypothesis. It is a best guess by somebody with scientific knowledge, but there is no reason to believe the real formula shouldn't be 10^(5.5-ph)+10(mg/cl sugar) or something completely different. However, my son and daughter both need a science fair project soon. I wonder if there is a way to formalize this a little.
  - xaa 14y ago
    How about the following: 1. Find a substance that is chemically tooth-like 2. Split it into predefined volumes (little cubes or spheres) 3. Add the beverage and saliva to the "tooth", wait a month, and measure the decrease in "tooth" volume. 4. Use regression to estimate the coefficients for sugar, pH, and whatever else.
    - lotsofpulp 14y ago
      You would be missing the bacteria, which are essential.
- Royal 14y ago
  Their function also improves the results if the drink is more basic. A drink with a pH of 13 would have an amazing score on here. If you normalize the pH above 5.5 since it has "little to no effect" things on the lower end of the results are better, with milk being worse than water, and chocolate milk being worse than milk.
squarecat 14y ago
Seems having only a dentist on hand for that "experiment" is akin to having a mechanic as your only expert for analyzing a car wreck? As the author even concedes, an abundance of anecdotes is not evidence. Was it so hard to find a chemist way back in aught-9? (Go down to the nearest uni and find a chem major at least...) The wide distribution of oversimplified, media-sanitized, pseudo-science is likely one of the affectations of Western culture that has kept it from progressing further for a solid 60 years--since television gave the ability for snake oil salesmen to multiply their effectiveness. The internet exponentially increased that ability.

casca 14y ago

Interesting, but their choice of weighting of sugar and pH is not based on any evidence. Also, would the amount of time that the drink is in contact with your teeth not have an impact? Perhaps wine would have more of an impact because you might keep it in your mouth longer, offset by the small likelihood you you drinking as much of it?

bmelton 14y ago
Similarly, I read something recently (no link, sorry) that stated something like the following (poorly paraphrased): Juice is fine to drink as it's generally healthy, but if you're going to drink it, do so quickly instead of sipping on it for long periods. The premise being exactly what you surmised, that chugging a small glass of OJ is much better for your teeth than sipping it and putting your teeth into contact with it for so much longer.
- scott_s 14y ago
  It may be better for your teeth, but I wonder if chugging it will spike your insulin more.
  - bmelton 14y ago
    That was kind of the same question I had when I read it, but I came to the (completely uninformed) conclusion that probably, the body's absorption rate was self-metering enough that it probably wouldn't make a difference drinking it all at once vs. drinking it over a 20 minute period. I have absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support this however, so who knows?
    - carey 14y ago
      Fructose is metabolised by the liver, which may only be able to handle so much at a time without negative effects. Raw fruit is digested more slowly than juice due its fibre content, so drinking juice slowly could be worse for your teeth but better for your liver. Even modern raw fruit are significantly larger and sweeter than a few hundred years ago, so maybe we should just stick to berries.

davidw 14y ago

I didn't get the impression they looked at serving size. In other words, the Merlot's average serving size is smaller than that of the Guiness, even though the latter is "better".

pre 14y ago
I wonder how much serving size would even matter? I'm told the damage comes after the drink really, when your teeth sit around covered in it. I'm sure it'd make some difference, it takes longer to drink a pint than a shot there'll be a bigger concentration there during those initial minutes, but I doubt it'd be linearly proportional. I'd guessed a red-wine. My dentist certainly goes on about my drinking booze more than me downing Ribena by the pint. I wonder if alcohol can have some unmeasured effect apart from sugar content and PH.

nealabq 14y ago

One hears that Bulimia and certain drug addictions (Crack, Meth) are very bad for your teeth. Bulimia because of the strong acid, and drugs because they interfere with the mouth's self-cleaning instinct. I'd guess the best teeth live in a mouth with: 1. Active high-volume saliva glands 2. A population of healthy bacteria How do you encourage that?

jbigelow76 14y ago
How about encourage them not to become crack heads or bulimics in the first place? It's a strategy that probably has benefits beyond mere dental health.
Alex3917 14y ago
The reason why amphetamines are bad for your teeth is that they prevent your mouth from making saliva, which allows bacteria to multiply and causes other bad things to happen as well. Obviously it's probably not a good idea to be using meth in the first place, but if you're going to use any sort of drug that causes dry mouth then at the very least you should brush, floss, and use mouthwash and flouride rinse beforehand.

hnriot 14y ago

This should not be so much surprise to anyone really. It's pretty widely known that sugar and acids are bad for your teeth. The degree to which any drink with these contributes to dental damage is probably more complicated but everyone knows that its best to drink water. Not only will it not ruin your teeth but it will also not make you fat, like sodas and juice boxes.

steve8918 14y ago

I have deep grooves in my teeth right above my gums on both sides of my mouth from drinking 3-6 cokes a day for 10+ years. For some reason, I have a habit of swishing the drinks on the bottom of my mouth and I think this is the reason why my teeth are so jacked up. In the past year, I've largely stopped drinking Coke, partly because of this, and because of the other health problems associated with drinking so much soft drinks. I've switched to water and have a sugary drink maybe once or twice a week.

peterwwillis 14y ago
Besides being bad for your teeth it's a nightmare on your body. That insulin dump from the onslaught of sugar will make you much more likely to develop diabetes, and some studies have shown a long-term metabolic effect where your body prefers sugars for energy instead of fats. That and the empty calories will lop-side your diet and make it harder to lose weight or gain muscle. There are lots of ways you can drink something tasty and not have such a huge impact on your body. Sometimes i'll buy a two-liter of green tea ginger ale or cranberry juice, and make a 50/50 or 25/75 mix of the drink and tap water. You can also just cold-brew tea or coffee and mix in a little sweetener or other flavor to change it up. It's cheaper than soda and (after you stop drinking soda every day) tastes much better because you're not getting hit over the head with truckloads of sugars. Ask a European about how sweet all our foods and drinks are.
- steve8918 14y ago
  I 100% agree. Actually I have done almost exactly that, switched to tea, or ice tea. I'm not completely off the sugary drinks, but I'll drink things like Honest Tea with a lot less sugar than Coke, or just plain Tea. The thing I'm actually most worried about is pancreatic cancer. I'm not even sure if there's a link between that and soft drinks, but I read one study where having 2-3 soft drinks a week doubled your risk of getting it. Well I was having 20 a week, which scared the crap out of me. And more and more people appear to be contracting and dying of it, so it's my secret fear.
  - kokey 14y ago

brianbreslin 14y ago

My uncle who is a dentist told me i got loads of cavities from gatorade. His rationale aside from the high sugar content was that because I was exercising, my mouth was drying out w/the gatorade residue in it. So the sugars eat away at your teeth faster. So there is that factor to weigh in as well (how your mouth is reacting at the time of the liquid consumption, or post consumption residue).

eaurouge 14y ago

Interested in hearing what people think of Xylitol and its positive effects on saliva pH.

beagle3 14y ago
Xylitol's major positive effects on teeth health come from a different path: The bacteria responsible for cavities will try to eat it (cause it's close enough to sugar) but fail to digest it (cause it isn't), which will interfere with their ability to prosper and even kill them. (Unfortunately, that's also true for dogs: DO NOT feed your dog xylitol. It is toxic for them: two xylitol-swettened gums are potentially enough to kill a small dog, and cause irreversible damage to larger dogs!) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xylitol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xylitol is a treasure trove
- ericd 14y ago
  That sounds like something I don't want to be eating either, if it's so toxic to both bacteria and fairly similar mammals. Have there been any long term xylitol studies? It seems likely that it would screw with the bacteria in one's gut.
  - beagle3 14y ago
    I don't know specifically about bacteria in one's gut, and hadn't thought of that. However, studies of xylitol in both humans and rats all show overwhelming positive (and mostly unexpected) results related to immunity to diseases like respiratory infections and ear infections. > something I don't want to be eating either, if it's so toxic to both bacteria and fairly similar mammals. FYI: Chocolate is toxic to dogs as well; a 70% chocolate bar can kill a small dog. Are you going to abstain from chocolate and recommend everyone else does too? Also: some humans are deathly allergic to nuts, and others to strawberries, and yet others to wheat gluten. These people are a lot closer to you genetically than a dog. Enough research has been done on xylitol to deem it safe for human use -- much more so than e.g. sucralose (Splenda), acesulfame-K (SweetOne), Aspartame (NutraSweet) and High Fructose Corn Syrup. And while Xylitol does not form naturally, it is a sugar alochol like e.g. Sorbitol (also found in plums and apples), and shares the vast majority of its properties. Really, do read the wikipedia entry.

myhf 14y ago

Wow, I never realized Diet Coke was less acidic than Diet Dr Pepper.

deltaqueue 14y ago

I wish he would have provided more explanation behind the dentist's algorithm. Here's an actual study measuring enamel loss, which seems much more definitive: http://faculty.philau.edu/ashleyj/General%20Dentistry%20Article.pdf http://faculty.philau.edu/ashleyj/General%20Dentistry%20Arti... Perhaps the most important snippet: Regression analysis indicated no correlation between enamel dissolution and beverage pH (r = 0.477, p > 0.05); in addition, the enamel dissolution showed no difference (p > 0.05) between the regular and diet versions of cola and non-cola beverages from the same manufacturer (Fig. 2 and 3). It was noted that the enamel dissolution was similar for all cola drinks over the 14-day test period (approximately 3.0 mg/cm2). And again: The data suggest that enamel aggressivity is determined by beverage composition rather than by beverage pH.

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nathanb 14y ago
Or how about experimental science? Get some human teeth (probably not difficult or expensive for a dentist), weigh them, plunk them in each liquid, let them sit for a week, see which ones lost the most mass. Obviously scientific rigor would require several experiments to smooth out the variances in individual tooth quality and original composition, but it seems like that would come to a more definitive conclusion.
- napillo 14y ago
  Did you RTFA? That's what they did.
- splat 14y ago
  I think the presence of saliva has a major effect on inhibiting tooth decay. I'm not sure how applicable in vitro experiments would be.
  - fusiongyro 14y ago
    It would give us a new hypothesis to test, and if it turns out to be wrong, it would tell us a lot about saliva, don't you think?

solox3 14y ago

To couple pH with 'badness', you need to couple it with volume. It takes less effort to neutralize 1L of pH3 stuff than 10L of pH4 stuff.

stuaxo 14y ago

Hm, but what about the effect of the bacteria consuming said drinks; surely this will change the results ?

tocomment 14y ago

I've never understood if sugar affects gum disease. Does anyone know? Does the gum disease bacteria eat sugar or directly eat your teeth and gums? I tried looking it up once but I only found information about sugar and cavities.

artemus 14y ago
Bacteria consume sugar, which produces acid as a waste-product, which erodes enamel. Gum disease is primarily an inflammatory response to the presence of external irritants like dental plaque (which contains bacteria as well).
- tocomment 14y ago
  So there's no specific gum disease bacteria? It's just the same bacteria that causes cavities?
  - artemus 14y ago
    According to Feng & Weinberg: Approximately 500 bacterial species reside in the oral cavity. Of these, 415 species are estimated to be present in subgingival plaque. Specifically: "A. actinomycetemcomitans has been strongly implicated in localized aggressive (juvenile) periodontitis Likewise, bacteria such as P. gingivalis, A. actinomycetemcomitans, Tannerella forsythia (formerly, Bacteroides forsythus), Treponema denticola, and Eikenella corrodens have been associated with chronic (adult) periodontitis." Ref: http://www.perioimplantelsalvador.com/Informacion/bibliografia/periodontal_tissues_role_bact.pdf http://www.perioimplantelsalvador.com/Informacion/bibliograf...

kokey 14y ago

From a very basic investigation by myself, I have found whiskey and water to be the alcoholic drink that's the least acidic.

nsxwolf 14y ago

As a child, my dentist also warned me about Mountain Dew and gave a specific reason - the presence of ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid (EDTA), used as a stabilizer. His theory was that it would chelate the calcium out of your tooth enamel. Sounds like a bit of dentist lore that gets passed around. Maybe because they use EDTA during root canals to prep the area.

alphadogg 14y ago
EDTA is in many drinks and foods, not just Mountain Dew.

JabavuAdams 14y ago

So a cookie should be much worse than any sugary drink. Basically, if you eat more than 0 sweets per day, it seems ridiculous to worry about sugary drinks. If you get a raspberry seed stuck between your teeth, it should be much worse than a sugary drink. Is there some coating effect I'm missing?

njs12345 14y ago

There's some effort underway to develop a vaccine against dental caries: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caries_vaccine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caries_vaccine

nemo1618 14y ago
Indeed, there are some very exciting prospects here. The replacement therapy seems most promising. I developed a number of cavities out of the blue after I began aggressively using mouthwash - my theory is that I had a mostly benevolent strain of bacteria and accidentally killed them off, and they were eventually replaced with a nastier strain. If a harmless strain could be administered through vaccine or chewing gum, the societal effects would be enormous. Seems like the largest problem left (as usual, sadly) is getting it out of the lab.

tocomment 14y ago

Hmm, this makes me wonder; should a low carb diet help cure gum disease and prevent cavities since you're providing so little sugar to the bacteria? In fact do you need to brush and floss when on a low carb diet? Has this been studied?

dollarpizza 14y ago

So where do coffee, espresso, & teas (black, green) fit into his Harm Matrix?

jarek 14y ago
Depends how much sugar you put into them.

barcoder 14y ago

"To mitigate the effects of pop consumption, only consume it with meals. Brush soon after eating or drinking anything besides water (including milk or juices)." Brushing soon after drinking or eating something sugary is not a good idea. Best to wait around 30 minutes and let your body clean your teeth during that time, after the 30 minutes manually clean! http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/21/really-never-brush-your-teeth-immediately-after-a-meal/ http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/21/really-never-brush-... http://www.hindustantimes.com/Entertainment/Wellness/Brushing-within-30-minutes-after-meal-can-damage-teeth/Article1-866236.aspx http://www.hindustantimes.com/Entertainment/Wellness/Brushin...

shalmanese 14y ago

Have there been any studies on whether drinking with a straw is better than drinking from a cup/bottle?

magoon 14y ago

Root beer is the best soda (pop) for your teeth because it isn't acidic.

humdumb 14y ago

Bacteria vs. Human body^1. 1. Specifically, teeth and saliva, but you must always consider the whole organism. Drink soda pop --> Advantage, Bacteria. Don't drink soda pop. --> What do you think? Bacteria need acidic conditions and they are happy to have plenty of sugar. Preserving your teeth means giving your body the best possible chance against bacteria, slowing the process of decay as much as you can. But in the end, on every front, bacteria will always win. It's just a matter of time. If they don't consume you while you're alive, they will after you're dead. With respect to tooth decay, drinking soft drinks surely helps bacteria, not the human body. But then, maybe people derive other benefits from drinking these concoctions. (Jolt?) Maybe preserving their teeth is not their number one priority? Factoid: George Washington had wooden teeth?

Detrus 14y ago

I never drink any sugary juices or candy. Eat lots of fruits and veggies, also bread, milk and nuts. And I have terrible tooth decay. Seems a bit silly to compare pHs of various junk foods. Drinking a better pH won't make much difference. The problem is a tad more complicated.

beagle3 14y ago
I had terrible tooth decay when I was younger (I have 16 fillings from ages 10-20). And then, all of a sudden - nothing. I haven't had a hole or a problem since (except for a filling that broke and had to be replaced). There was nothing that I'm aware of that I changed around that time -- I stopped drinking sodas and eating junk food around age 30. But I have recently read claims (and testimonials) that what you need for healthy teeth is Vitamin D (make sure you take it in the morning if you do!) and Vitamin K2, see e.g. http://www.thedentalessentials.com/The_role_of_vitamin_k2_on_tooth_decay_s/29.htm http://www.thedentalessentials.com/The_role_of_vitamin_k2_on... ; If you find this interesting, you'll find a lot more similar stuff on the bulletproof executive forums.

dhughes 14y ago

I can't see how second best sorbitol and the best being Xylitol are any better than sugar they're sugar alcohols which have the effects of a laxitive. How about just not eating so much sugar, and if you're diabetic try stevia that's what my mother, a diabetic, chooses.

baseh 14y ago

Thats it. I am switching to Spartan Lower 1/2% milk

jtlienws 14y ago

If you must drinks harmful to teeth, It would make sense to me to use a straw, and put the straw deep in you mouth so that the liquid does not come in contact with the teeth.

jtlienws 14y ago

If you must drinks harmful to teeth, It would make sense to me to use a straw, and put the straw deep in you mouth so that the liquid does not come in contact with the teeth.

photorized 14y ago

Genetics.

rcxb 14y ago

With "skeptic" in the name, I was expecting much, much better. It's a pretty bland application of some rule-of-thumb (perhaps, dogmatic) beliefs about tooth decay, which doesn't hold up to reality. One of the problems which comes to mind is that mouth wash has NEVER proven effective in preventing tooth decay (and companies that make Scope, Listerene and others would really LOVE to be able to say that it does). Meanwhile, this article blindly asserts that they will work quite well. This issue throws every other claim into doubt, too, since the bacteria is claimed be be the sole cause of decay, and a mouth wash certainly could kill-off bacteria in the mouth. It seems tooth decay is a far more complex activity than the model used in this discussion.