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Faruk Ateş' at least got this part right: The tone of our debates – which often get quite heated – is frequently different based on the gender of the author(s)

Faruk Ateş' at least got this part right: The tone of our debates – which often get quite heated – is frequently different based on the gender of the author(s). Sanders' article seems a little more rant-y than it should be for someone who is basing her experiences "in the industry" (UK) since April 2012. Not that a relatively small amount of experience means you can't have an opinion, but it can't be good to become totally blind to something just because you don't want to see it. Given a little bit of time, perhaps she will see that some sexism-based discrimination does exist -- not just in tech but pretty much every industry. But it's not the kind related to violence or "rape culture", but rather of pay. It is a cold, hard fact: women make less than men. Let's just say "I know a gal" who was fired from a company in the Valley because of that very discrimination. She had a master's degree and had been at the company almost 1+ year when she discovered that than the guy she was training, a dropout art school student whose "industry experience" amounted to working at Home Depot as a cashier was earning more. When my friend asked for equal pay for equal work, citing Obama's signing of Lily Ledbetter, her employers cut her salary to hourly, started writing her up for even the most minor infraction, and eventually ended up firing her. From what she tells me, she was unable to afford legal representation, Silicon Valley attorneys literally laughed at her (said they would not take the case for free), so she ended up signing a stack of legal mumbo jumbo that literally raped her of all her legal rights.

jerrya 14y ago
Let's just say "I know a gal" who was fired from a company in the Valley because of that very discrimination. She had a master's degree and had been at the company almost 1+ year when she discovered that than the guy she was training, a dropout art school student whose "industry experience" amounted to working at Home Depot as a cashier was earning more. When my friend asked for equal pay for equal work, citing Obama's signing of Lily Ledbetter, her employers cut her salary to hourly, started writing her up for even the most minor infraction, and eventually ended up firing her. From what she tells me, she was unable to afford legal representation, Silicon Valley attorneys literally laughed at her (said they would not take the case for free), so she ended up signing a stack of legal mumbo jumbo that literally raped her of all her legal rights. It's very hard to take this story at face value.
- KuraFire 14y ago
  > "It's very hard to take this story at face value." Why? Because it disproves your world view? Because it makes you uncomfortable to acknowledge that this kind of shit can (and does) happen in an industry you like to idolize? This story is outrageous, but entirely in line with many other, very similar stories I’ve heard personally by various women. Men reacting dishearteningly poorly to women raising the issue of mistreatment is A Thing™. A COMMON thing, even. Yes, even in our industry.
  - jerrya 14y ago
    Think of the story as a mystery. Let's just say "I know a gal" who was fired from a company in the Valley because of that very discrimination. She had a master's degree and had been at the company almost 1+ year when she discovered that than the guy she was training, a dropout art school student whose "industry experience" amounted to working at Home Depot as a cashier was earning more. When my friend asked for equal pay for equal work, citing Obama's signing of Lily Ledbetter, her employers cut her salary to hourly, started writing her up for even the most minor infraction, and eventually ended up firing her. From what she tells me, she was unable to afford legal representation, Silicon Valley attorneys literally laughed at her (said they would not take the case for free), so she ended up signing a stack of legal mumbo jumbo that literally raped her of all her legal rights. Think of the actions that are alleged to have taken place. What are the motivations of these actions? How does the villain profit by those actions? Why would an employer pay a long time employee with a Masters degree less than a new hire with no experience, and then prefer to fire her rather than bring her salary up to par. When given evidence of this unfairness, especially in light of Lilly Ledbetter as well as the Equal Pay Act of 1963, why is it that there were no attorneys willing to take this case. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and the story is entirely OUT of line with what we know of the behaviors of lawyers as well as the behavior of modern HR departments or CEOs or managers. Because it makes you uncomfortable to acknowledge that this kind of shit can (and does) happen in an industry you like to idolize? So now you're speculating, and actually being pretty insulting, about my inner states of mind in at least two regards. Since you don't know me, you might find it less insulting, more productive, and more persuasive to stick to fact based questioning: 1) Show the claim is rather common and not extraordinary 2) Provide motives for this behavior to occur 3) Provide reasoning why lawyers wouldn't take this case in a heartbeat.
papsosouid 14y ago
>Given a little bit of time, perhaps she will see that some sexism-based discrimination does exist Did you skip the "reading the article" part? She made it quite clear that she has experienced sexism before, just not yet in the web industry. She didn't say sexism doesn't exist, just that it doesn't seem to be a web/it problem. >It is a cold, hard fact: women make less than men. No, it isn't. The wage gap myth is just that, a myth. Women are paid the same as men when they work the same number of hours in the same job. Averaging the pay of all women and the pay of all men shows men making more, but they are also working more hours and are disproportionally represented in high risk, high pay jobs.
- btilly 14y ago
  You state yourself very confidently. Care to back it up with citations? According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male%E2%80%93female_income_disparity_in_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male%E2%80%93female_income_disp... many studies have found that there is a persistent gap that remains, even when you control for education level, hours worked, experience, etc. It is unclear whose fault this gap is. For instance when people get a job offer, men are more likely to try to negotiate than women. That fact can cause significant wage discrimination at a company that is not trying to discriminate at all.
  - papsosouid 14y ago
    >According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male%E2%80%93female_income_disp.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male%E2%80%93female_income_disp.... many studies have found that there is a persistent gap that remains, even when you control for education level, hours worked, experience, etc. It does not say that. It says one single economist testified to that affect. And that others offered rebuttals. Controlling for hours worked, education, experience, etc leaves you with the opposite of what you think: there is no gap. And the exact page you are linking to points out that the gap also goes the other direction when you don't account for confounding factors, do you also think there is widespread sexism against men lowering their income? "According to an analysis of Census Bureau data released by Reach Advisors in 2008, single childless women between ages 22 and 30 were earning more than their male counterparts in most United States cities, with incomes that were 8% greater than males on average" The only studies I've seen that claim there is still an unexplained difference after accounting for confounding factors all have the same flaw. They do not actually account for hours worked. They classify "full time" as all the same. When 60 hours and 40 hours are considered the same, you are not controlling for hours worked. They end up with figures at around 5% pay gap. Which confirms the nonexistence of this gap, as the average full time hours per day of a man is 8.14, and a woman is 7.75. The US department of labor commissioned a report on the subject. They found that there is no wage gap, the pay gap can be fully explained by differences in work (job choice, hours worked, etc): http://www.consad.com/content/reports/Gender%20Wage%20Gap%20Final%20Report.pdf http://www.consad.com/content/reports/Gender%20Wage%20Gap%20...
darkarmani 14y ago
> literally raped her of all her legal rights Really? That's the way you want to describe this?
- trhtrsh 14y ago
  'literally' means 'figuratively', figuratively. 'literally' means 'figuratively', literally, if you use 'literally' figuratively.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
sp332 14y ago
He was probably a better negotiator. And citing laws that say you should be paid a certain amount, instead of showing her value to the company, is not a good tactic for getting a raise.

jerrya 14y ago

Let's just say "I know a gal" who was fired from a company in the Valley because of that very discrimination. She had a master's degree and had been at the company almost 1+ year when she discovered that than the guy she was training, a dropout art school student whose "industry experience" amounted to working at Home Depot as a cashier was earning more. When my friend asked for equal pay for equal work, citing Obama's signing of Lily Ledbetter, her employers cut her salary to hourly, started writing her up for even the most minor infraction, and eventually ended up firing her. From what she tells me, she was unable to afford legal representation, Silicon Valley attorneys literally laughed at her (said they would not take the case for free), so she ended up signing a stack of legal mumbo jumbo that literally raped her of all her legal rights. It's very hard to take this story at face value.

KuraFire 14y ago
> "It's very hard to take this story at face value." Why? Because it disproves your world view? Because it makes you uncomfortable to acknowledge that this kind of shit can (and does) happen in an industry you like to idolize? This story is outrageous, but entirely in line with many other, very similar stories I’ve heard personally by various women. Men reacting dishearteningly poorly to women raising the issue of mistreatment is A Thing™. A COMMON thing, even. Yes, even in our industry.
- jerrya 14y ago
  Think of the story as a mystery. Let's just say "I know a gal" who was fired from a company in the Valley because of that very discrimination. She had a master's degree and had been at the company almost 1+ year when she discovered that than the guy she was training, a dropout art school student whose "industry experience" amounted to working at Home Depot as a cashier was earning more. When my friend asked for equal pay for equal work, citing Obama's signing of Lily Ledbetter, her employers cut her salary to hourly, started writing her up for even the most minor infraction, and eventually ended up firing her. From what she tells me, she was unable to afford legal representation, Silicon Valley attorneys literally laughed at her (said they would not take the case for free), so she ended up signing a stack of legal mumbo jumbo that literally raped her of all her legal rights. Think of the actions that are alleged to have taken place. What are the motivations of these actions? How does the villain profit by those actions? Why would an employer pay a long time employee with a Masters degree less than a new hire with no experience, and then prefer to fire her rather than bring her salary up to par. When given evidence of this unfairness, especially in light of Lilly Ledbetter as well as the Equal Pay Act of 1963, why is it that there were no attorneys willing to take this case. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and the story is entirely OUT of line with what we know of the behaviors of lawyers as well as the behavior of modern HR departments or CEOs or managers. Because it makes you uncomfortable to acknowledge that this kind of shit can (and does) happen in an industry you like to idolize? So now you're speculating, and actually being pretty insulting, about my inner states of mind in at least two regards. Since you don't know me, you might find it less insulting, more productive, and more persuasive to stick to fact based questioning: 1) Show the claim is rather common and not extraordinary 2) Provide motives for this behavior to occur 3) Provide reasoning why lawyers wouldn't take this case in a heartbeat.

papsosouid 14y ago

>Given a little bit of time, perhaps she will see that some sexism-based discrimination does exist Did you skip the "reading the article" part? She made it quite clear that she has experienced sexism before, just not yet in the web industry. She didn't say sexism doesn't exist, just that it doesn't seem to be a web/it problem. >It is a cold, hard fact: women make less than men. No, it isn't. The wage gap myth is just that, a myth. Women are paid the same as men when they work the same number of hours in the same job. Averaging the pay of all women and the pay of all men shows men making more, but they are also working more hours and are disproportionally represented in high risk, high pay jobs.

btilly 14y ago
You state yourself very confidently. Care to back it up with citations? According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male%E2%80%93female_income_disparity_in_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male%E2%80%93female_income_disp... many studies have found that there is a persistent gap that remains, even when you control for education level, hours worked, experience, etc. It is unclear whose fault this gap is. For instance when people get a job offer, men are more likely to try to negotiate than women. That fact can cause significant wage discrimination at a company that is not trying to discriminate at all.
- papsosouid 14y ago
  >According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male%E2%80%93female_income_disp.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male%E2%80%93female_income_disp.... many studies have found that there is a persistent gap that remains, even when you control for education level, hours worked, experience, etc. It does not say that. It says one single economist testified to that affect. And that others offered rebuttals. Controlling for hours worked, education, experience, etc leaves you with the opposite of what you think: there is no gap. And the exact page you are linking to points out that the gap also goes the other direction when you don't account for confounding factors, do you also think there is widespread sexism against men lowering their income? "According to an analysis of Census Bureau data released by Reach Advisors in 2008, single childless women between ages 22 and 30 were earning more than their male counterparts in most United States cities, with incomes that were 8% greater than males on average" The only studies I've seen that claim there is still an unexplained difference after accounting for confounding factors all have the same flaw. They do not actually account for hours worked. They classify "full time" as all the same. When 60 hours and 40 hours are considered the same, you are not controlling for hours worked. They end up with figures at around 5% pay gap. Which confirms the nonexistence of this gap, as the average full time hours per day of a man is 8.14, and a woman is 7.75. The US department of labor commissioned a report on the subject. They found that there is no wage gap, the pay gap can be fully explained by differences in work (job choice, hours worked, etc): http://www.consad.com/content/reports/Gender%20Wage%20Gap%20Final%20Report.pdf http://www.consad.com/content/reports/Gender%20Wage%20Gap%20...

darkarmani 14y ago

> literally raped her of all her legal rights Really? That's the way you want to describe this?

trhtrsh 14y ago
'literally' means 'figuratively', figuratively. 'literally' means 'figuratively', literally, if you use 'literally' figuratively.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

sp332 14y ago

He was probably a better negotiator. And citing laws that say you should be paid a certain amount, instead of showing her value to the company, is not a good tactic for getting a raise.