4 ms·

It's quiet the power requirement. I wonder how long it has to focus on a drone to eliminate it. Like how long is this thing consuming 100kW?

by cogman10 10mo ago

jstummbillig 10mo ago
Hm, you think longer than the laser is firing? Could there be windup?
- cogman10 10mo ago
  I imagine there's some sort of storage system, like a huge bank of ultra-capacitors, that are constantly kept charged. The wind up would be if that bank is depleted and they need to recharge. Delivering 100kW for a short period of time is definitely a feat.
  - jstummbillig 10mo ago
    Ah, good point, that seems likely.
  - amluto 10mo ago
    If these things are even 50% efficient, then power delivery is really not a problem these days. Most EVs have no problem delivering 200kW for quite a few seconds at a time, limited mostly by components getting warm. Higher-end EVs are generally rated for 300-500kW. It would by amusing to see one of these lasers mounted on an EV, possibly with a small range extender to recharge it on the go.
cenamus 10mo ago
Good question, probably depends a lot on how much energy actually makes it to the target some distance away. And then how much is actually absorbed. Probably depends more on the power density then, rather than total power? Can't imagine they get a very small spot at multiple km unless they use gigantic lenses or multiple independent laser focused on the same spot
- condensedcrab 10mo ago
  Even small divergence angles add up if they’re trying to intercept at visual ranges outside of traditional munitions. That being said, probably ~10kW/m^2 is enough to overheat or disable a UAV
  - chmod775 10mo ago
    It'll get a lot of time to react at that energy as it's not going to "instantly" fry anything*. That's probably less energy/m2 than consumer heat guns, especially if consider that these drones are likely going to get sprayed in reflective paint. Easy defense for the drone would be just: get into a spin to get roasted evenly -> shut off -> fall for a few hundred meters, cooling using air that rushes by to counteract the laser further -> catch itself once it lost the laser. That would force these laser systems to point each drone until it either visibly goes up in flames or impacts the ground (which means you also need to be able to track them all the way down), otherwise you can't be sure it won't just snap back to life once you started engaging the next drone. I don't feel like 10kw/m2 would be anywhere near useful. It's gotta be more than that. * Stadium floodlights aren't going to instantly grill any bird that flies in front of them either, and they reach that ballpark.
    - cenamus 10mo ago
      Yeah 10kW/m2 isn't much more than than sunlight, which is around 1000-1300 W/m2 depending on conditions. If you can target it for a couple seconds with that power then you're not gonna do much, much less if it's not very absorbent
- JumpCrisscross 10mo ago
  Maybe it involves multiple converging beams to reduce transmission losses?
  - tguvot 10mo ago
    yes it does
JumpCrisscross 10mo ago
Huh, to what degree is this technology gatekept by battery advances? A few decades ago lasers were dismissed because they involved chemical reagents for high power and explosive capacitors for even low-power applications.
- cogman10 10mo ago
  > Huh, to what degree is this technology gatekept by battery advances? Not too much. The power delivery was doable even 15 years ago. It would have just been more expensive and heavier. The bigger issue I believe would have been the lens and tracking capabilities. For the tracking to work you need some pretty good cameras, pretty fast computers, and pretty good object recognition. We are talking about using high speed cameras and doing object detection each frame
  - Animats 10mo ago
    > The power delivery was doable even 15 years ago. Not really. It took a long time for solid state lasers to make it to 100KW. That's the power level military people have wanted for two decades. Megawatt chemical lasers are possible, and have been built. But the ground based one was three semitrailers, and the airborne one needed a 747. Plus you ran out of chemicals fairly fast.
    - serf 10mo ago
      I took 'power delivery' to mean the systems that facilitate driving the energy into the weapon, not the beam itself -- although now under consideration of the technology I think we should probably avoid the use of the phrase 'power delivery', without a projectile being involved that's essentially the entire concept.
      - Animats 10mo ago
        Good point on nomenclature. A 100KW generator is no big deal. It's a truck Diesel engine coupled to a generator. Trailer-mounted, it can be towed with a pickup truck. It's a standard rental item for larger construction projects. A 100KW laser is a big deal. The big problem with this as an anti-drone weapon is that, unlike artillery shells or unguided missiles, drones can operate close to the ground, and the laser needs line of sight.
tguvot 10mo ago
few seconds. it (lower power version) was deployed during war with hezbollah and intercepted 40 drones (big one, not fpv). there is footage of intercepts out there. was released about half an year ago
wolfi1 10mo ago
I guess they are using it in pulsed mode, continuous mode would be a little bit much power
stackghost 10mo ago
Depends on how tightly they can focus the beam. http://panoptesv.com/SciFi/LaserDeathRay/DamageFromLaser.php http://panoptesv.com/SciFi/LaserDeathRay/DamageFromLaser.php
FunnyUsername 10mo ago
Is that output power of the laser? If it's input power, it doesn't really seem that high. Some US homes could draw 100kW if charging multiple EVs etc.
- cogman10 10mo ago
  > Some US homes could draw 100kW if charging multiple EVs No. Most US homes are on 200 or 100A service. 200A tops out at 48kW You won't find many home chargers that are more than 60A.
  - SigmundA 10mo ago
    There is 400 amp residential service you can get 80 amp 19.2 kw level 2 chargers. You would need 5 80 amp charger to approach 100kw but with other loads in a large house, I have seen large HVAC systems and elaborate pools with lazy rivers etc that can add up very quickly which is why they had 400 amp service. 100kw isn't really that much, a modern EV can put out 3 times that from its battery pack into the motor for short bursts and easily sustain 100kw until drained. 480v 200 amp 3 phase commercial supply can provide 100kw continuous and would be some thing used in a medium sized office building.
  - FunnyUsername 10mo ago
    As the sibling comment notes, these days 400a residential service is available as an option in many places. One home actually consuming close to 400a is pretty rare, but it's possible mainly in gas-free builds, if using things like electric tankless water heaters (a bit niche) in addition to multiple EV chargers, a range, dryer, etc. Maybe a better way to convey that 100kW is “small” is to point out that industrial sites all around us, such as smaller datacenters, are well into the MW range.
montjoy 10mo ago
It’s missing almost all technical details, which seems fishy to me. But I’m sure this defense company is honest and has a system that works great and so that’s why no technical details are needed. /s

It's quiet the power requirement. I wonder how long it has to focus on a drone to eliminate it. Like how long is this thing consuming 100kW?

jstummbillig 10mo ago

Hm, you think longer than the laser is firing? Could there be windup?

cogman10 10mo ago
I imagine there's some sort of storage system, like a huge bank of ultra-capacitors, that are constantly kept charged. The wind up would be if that bank is depleted and they need to recharge. Delivering 100kW for a short period of time is definitely a feat.
- jstummbillig 10mo ago
  Ah, good point, that seems likely.
- amluto 10mo ago
  If these things are even 50% efficient, then power delivery is really not a problem these days. Most EVs have no problem delivering 200kW for quite a few seconds at a time, limited mostly by components getting warm. Higher-end EVs are generally rated for 300-500kW. It would by amusing to see one of these lasers mounted on an EV, possibly with a small range extender to recharge it on the go.

cenamus 10mo ago

Good question, probably depends a lot on how much energy actually makes it to the target some distance away. And then how much is actually absorbed. Probably depends more on the power density then, rather than total power? Can't imagine they get a very small spot at multiple km unless they use gigantic lenses or multiple independent laser focused on the same spot

condensedcrab 10mo ago
Even small divergence angles add up if they’re trying to intercept at visual ranges outside of traditional munitions. That being said, probably ~10kW/m^2 is enough to overheat or disable a UAV
- chmod775 10mo ago
  It'll get a lot of time to react at that energy as it's not going to "instantly" fry anything*. That's probably less energy/m2 than consumer heat guns, especially if consider that these drones are likely going to get sprayed in reflective paint. Easy defense for the drone would be just: get into a spin to get roasted evenly -> shut off -> fall for a few hundred meters, cooling using air that rushes by to counteract the laser further -> catch itself once it lost the laser. That would force these laser systems to point each drone until it either visibly goes up in flames or impacts the ground (which means you also need to be able to track them all the way down), otherwise you can't be sure it won't just snap back to life once you started engaging the next drone. I don't feel like 10kw/m2 would be anywhere near useful. It's gotta be more than that. * Stadium floodlights aren't going to instantly grill any bird that flies in front of them either, and they reach that ballpark.
  - cenamus 10mo ago
    Yeah 10kW/m2 isn't much more than than sunlight, which is around 1000-1300 W/m2 depending on conditions. If you can target it for a couple seconds with that power then you're not gonna do much, much less if it's not very absorbent
JumpCrisscross 10mo ago
Maybe it involves multiple converging beams to reduce transmission losses?
- tguvot 10mo ago
  yes it does

JumpCrisscross 10mo ago

Huh, to what degree is this technology gatekept by battery advances? A few decades ago lasers were dismissed because they involved chemical reagents for high power and explosive capacitors for even low-power applications.

cogman10 10mo ago
> Huh, to what degree is this technology gatekept by battery advances? Not too much. The power delivery was doable even 15 years ago. It would have just been more expensive and heavier. The bigger issue I believe would have been the lens and tracking capabilities. For the tracking to work you need some pretty good cameras, pretty fast computers, and pretty good object recognition. We are talking about using high speed cameras and doing object detection each frame
- Animats 10mo ago
  > The power delivery was doable even 15 years ago. Not really. It took a long time for solid state lasers to make it to 100KW. That's the power level military people have wanted for two decades. Megawatt chemical lasers are possible, and have been built. But the ground based one was three semitrailers, and the airborne one needed a 747. Plus you ran out of chemicals fairly fast.
  - serf 10mo ago
    I took 'power delivery' to mean the systems that facilitate driving the energy into the weapon, not the beam itself -- although now under consideration of the technology I think we should probably avoid the use of the phrase 'power delivery', without a projectile being involved that's essentially the entire concept.
    - Animats 10mo ago
      Good point on nomenclature. A 100KW generator is no big deal. It's a truck Diesel engine coupled to a generator. Trailer-mounted, it can be towed with a pickup truck. It's a standard rental item for larger construction projects. A 100KW laser is a big deal. The big problem with this as an anti-drone weapon is that, unlike artillery shells or unguided missiles, drones can operate close to the ground, and the laser needs line of sight.

tguvot 10mo ago

few seconds. it (lower power version) was deployed during war with hezbollah and intercepted 40 drones (big one, not fpv). there is footage of intercepts out there. was released about half an year ago

wolfi1 10mo ago

I guess they are using it in pulsed mode, continuous mode would be a little bit much power

stackghost 10mo ago

Depends on how tightly they can focus the beam. http://panoptesv.com/SciFi/LaserDeathRay/DamageFromLaser.php http://panoptesv.com/SciFi/LaserDeathRay/DamageFromLaser.php

FunnyUsername 10mo ago

Is that output power of the laser? If it's input power, it doesn't really seem that high. Some US homes could draw 100kW if charging multiple EVs etc.

cogman10 10mo ago
> Some US homes could draw 100kW if charging multiple EVs No. Most US homes are on 200 or 100A service. 200A tops out at 48kW You won't find many home chargers that are more than 60A.
- SigmundA 10mo ago
  There is 400 amp residential service you can get 80 amp 19.2 kw level 2 chargers. You would need 5 80 amp charger to approach 100kw but with other loads in a large house, I have seen large HVAC systems and elaborate pools with lazy rivers etc that can add up very quickly which is why they had 400 amp service. 100kw isn't really that much, a modern EV can put out 3 times that from its battery pack into the motor for short bursts and easily sustain 100kw until drained. 480v 200 amp 3 phase commercial supply can provide 100kw continuous and would be some thing used in a medium sized office building.
- FunnyUsername 10mo ago
  As the sibling comment notes, these days 400a residential service is available as an option in many places. One home actually consuming close to 400a is pretty rare, but it's possible mainly in gas-free builds, if using things like electric tankless water heaters (a bit niche) in addition to multiple EV chargers, a range, dryer, etc. Maybe a better way to convey that 100kW is “small” is to point out that industrial sites all around us, such as smaller datacenters, are well into the MW range.

montjoy 10mo ago

It’s missing almost all technical details, which seems fishy to me. But I’m sure this defense company is honest and has a system that works great and so that’s why no technical details are needed. /s