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On sexism in the tech industry - rebuttal

168 points by zachinglis 14y ago

drama247365 14y ago
Go make me a sammage while I read this.
an_actual_man 14y ago
How does such a waste of bandwidth even get 27 points? Is this site infested with feminists or what?
- zachinglis 14y ago
  So you think posts like this shouldn't be on HN, but comments like this should be? That's not the Hacker News I love. What a useless comment. If you actually read it, it's against over the top feminism.
  - gruseom 14y ago
    So you think posts like this shouldn't be on HN, but comments like this should be? That's the best way of making that point that I've ever seen.
- xionon 14y ago
  How about some real criticism instead of just fear and anger at a woman expressing an opinion contrary to your own?
- seraph787 14y ago
  As a male feminist. I wouldn't even up vote this. She does point out why the article is stupid but I think most people would agree on that point already.
  - zachinglis 14y ago
    You'd be surprised. A lot of people took the original post as gospel. Some because if they didn't, they'd be labelled against women. (It's a sort-of mob mentality.)
    - youngtaff 14y ago
      The original article in .net mag was really difficult to read, I gave up part way through. After reading Laura's post I went back to it but no still gave up part way through. The original author was on a hiding to nothing as I think it's really difficult for guys to well write about sexism
  - D3 14y ago
    >As a male feminist. Say what? Shouldn't you be for equality rather than women's rights? Men are people too!
- laurasanders 14y ago
  Did you actually read the post? It's an argument AGAINST the .net article that argues that all women are constantly subjected to sexism in this industry
- crntaylor 14y ago
  Taking feminism to be broadly the belief that women and men should have equal social, political and economic rights, I would be very upset if the site wasn't infested with feminists.
  - an_actual_man 14y ago
    You're describing egalitarianism, not feminism. When you see an article being advertised as "by an actual girl", you know it's not about equality.
    - AndrewDucker 14y ago
      "Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women."
      - an_actual_man 14y ago
        Wow, people still fall for that bullshit? Where did you take that from, jezebel?
      - papsosouid 14y ago
        The problem with that is that people's perception of what it means is more important than what is in a dictionary. Given the dictionary definition, one would have to assume 100% of women would be feminists. By the dictionary definition, it makes no sense for any women not to be a feminist. Yet 75% of women refuse to self-identify as feminists. The baggage that comes with the term has too much weight for the dictionary definition to matter any more.
        Cushman 14y ago
        Think a little about what you're saying here. For example, the dictionary definition of atheism is a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods. However, many religious people believe that atheism is a conscious rejection of an existing God, a deliberate embracing of evil, and that all atheists are intrinsically amoral or indeed immoral. This understanding is so common that most people who do not believe in a god refuse to self-identify as atheists, and those who do are reviled somewhat less than child molesters. My point here should be obvious: You're right. If you don't believe in God, you are an atheist. If you think your social rights should be independent of your genitals or gender identity, you are a feminist. But if you don't use the word to describe yourself (and that's forgivable), it's not because it has "baggage"-- it's because hateful organizations and individuals have been attacking the word as a proxy for attacking the concept, and it is working. We don't have to let them off the hook for this.
- novalis 14y ago
  I think this is living proof that throw away accounts should be dealt with on here. If someone really wants to participate, a good 6/12 hours cool down without posting privileges would do nicely. I don't think anyone wins anything on here with this sort of reddit novelty account phenomenon. It will not stop all trolling, just this sort of troll.
  - an_actual_man 14y ago
    Poor thing, you actually have to read different opinions now! The horror, the horror.
  - randallsquared 14y ago
    They're already green, so you know which ones to ignore if that's how you feel.
  - corin_ 14y ago
    9 times out of 10 I agree with you, but HN is a rare site on which there are often genuine causes for a throwaway account, when people have good input to make on a thread but for work related reasons can't do it under a name that their colleagues/boss/etc. might recognise.
jerrya 14y ago
Interesting article, along with the comment on it. As a man in the tech industry, I saw sexism quite a long time ago -- in that a coworker benefited from a pay lawsuit. But that was several decades ago. I haven't seen much sexism in the industry since then, but it could be that my views are limited and the companies and teams I have worked on limited. So this article felt good to see. Maybe what I think I've been seeing (or not seeing) is not far off the mark. Related: could it be that after declining for decades that sexism in the population has gotten worse over time? What is with you people?
- thisone 14y ago
  that's my problem with these articles and posts. They seem to suppose that there aren't more women because of sexism. I'm not an industry researcher, so all I have to go on is my experiences. I was a tiny kid, playing with Simons BASIC and having fun. But I never thought of it as a career path. No one I knew was in IT, no one in the family, or friend's families was in IT. At school it wasn't something that was talked about as a career path (though nursing and teaching were). I didn't realize I wanted to be a developer until I got a random part time job at university and built websites and databases. (I was majoring in engineering at the time) That left me with a big gap in skill set from everyone else my age who had been playing around with tech since they were pre-teens. But things are relatively hunky-dory now. But I always think, what if I hadn't gotten that random job? Why hadn't I been exposed to this career before then? Would it have been industry sexism that meant I wasn't a developer? No. It would have been lack of exposure to the possibility at a young age.
  - __alexs 14y ago
    > Would it have been industry sexism that meant I wasn't a developer? No. It would have been lack of exposure to the possibility at a young age. Not being told that certain opportunities are open to you because of your gender is sexism. This goes beyond child hood. People assume because of you're gender you will or will not be into certain job prospects and other activities. This is sexism.
    - 14y ago
Toshio 14y ago
Randi Harper a.k.a. FreeBSD Girl was interviewed for the FLOSS Weekly podcast and she said that every minute spent on discussing gender issues in technology is a wasted minute that should be better spent building free software.
- an_actual_man 14y ago
  Cool. I've been saying it for years, but because I don't have a vagina, my opinion is considered sexist. B-but feminism is about equality, r-right?
  - zachinglis 14y ago
    Aggressive behavior will get you nowhere. ESPECIALLY because of your earlier post. This is not against men having a view. But a woman is far more likely to understand sexism AGAINST women - because of (shock horror) being women.
    - an_actual_man 14y ago
      Expressing an opinion is considered "aggressive behavior" now? Ahahaha, oh feminists, you're so crazy. Anyway, you're saying that being female per se makes someone's opinion more valuable, which is a blatantly sexist opinion itself. Congratulations for shooting yourself in the foot and saying goodbye to what little credibility you had. Next!
      - shardling 14y ago
        I'd like to appeal to HN to just ignore this poster -- nothing fruitful will come from engaging.
      - ktizo 14y ago
        So, you have only just registered an hour ago under a username that is chosen to reference the title of one article, purely in order to troll that article. You should probably not bother trying to argue from a position of credibility really.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
KaoruAoiShiho 14y ago
Nice post. But I would like to hear on whether or not you disagree with the actual point that he's making. Do you think rape jokes can be brushed off or should the tellers be actively censured instead?
its_so_general 14y ago
I don't know. This was my reaction when the CEO of a tiny startup I was helping out declared, out of the blue for no reason, and in complete pigheaded seriousness "I would never hire a woman at this company." I thought to myeself: "Wow you're fucking retarded. You've just shot out the only two qualified experts in my network (for a couple of important roles) who we could possibly get to help us out on terms we can afford, and you don't have a network of your own - and now I see why, because you're fucking retarded." You will also note that I didn't swim against this guy's current for that long. But I did have a job with him, and if I were a woman I wouldn't have had that job with him, because he's an idiot. A sexist idiot or just an idiot? This is a question of definitions. By the definition of sexism, he is a sexist idiot. As long as he actually refuses to hire qualified women, his whole company is sexist.
covati 14y ago
I only skimmed the original article, and I think this woman makes some great point about how absurd his article is. She has some good points about her experience, however, as she has only had 6 months in this field, and that is working in one company, I'd say she's not the right person to write a rebuttal to anything about the current state of it's culture. Someone who has worked in multiple companies, in different regions, and at varying levels of organizations would be much more fit. Again, I'm not saying her article is crap, the bulk of it is a good counterpoint, I'd just like to see someone with a bit of a broader view way in from a woman's perspective.
- laurasanders 14y ago
  I'd like to hear a version from someone who has been in the industry a lot longer too. I specifically added the section at the bottom explaining that I hadn't been in the industry all that long so I wasn't pretending to be speaking from a much more experienced position than I am. From the comments I've received so far there are definitely women who have been in the industry a lot longer than I have that share my point of view though.
  - KuraFire 14y ago
    What, you mean like someone who’s been in the industry for fifteen years, worked at companies both small and large, startups and corporations, and in four different countries?
- sethg 14y ago
  Gloria Steinem once remarked that women in our culture are valued when they are young and pretty, while men in our culture are valued when they are old and rich: therefore, as they grow older, women become more radical and men become more conservative. (As a man, I thought this was a very insightful observation... when I first read it... many years ago. :-)
shakesbeard 14y ago
I'm a young, white male, aka privileged person. I've read quite a lot about feminism (and anti-racism for that matter), and struggled to get a clear picture of when my actions are appreciated. I think the most important lesson I've learned is that I must listen; because I do not have any first hand experience.
- white_young_man 14y ago
  I'm a young, white man too. Care to tell me how this makes me a privileged person?
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - optymizer 14y ago
    I think he/she may be referring to this sentence in the original article (on netmagazine.com): "In today's Western society, being male, white and straight gives you three huge privileges over everyone else"
  - EvilTerran 14y ago
    Does this help? http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Privilege_checklist http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Privilege_checklist
bane 14y ago
There is certainly sexism in the tech industry. It's not terribly common or widespread, but it's there. But the tech industry is also famously self-selective. Many people in the industry self-selected for it when they were pre-teens. Spending hours upon hours programming in BASIC or whatever on their C64s or TRS-80s before they were out of elementary school...before thoughts of sexism enter the consciousness. There is very little preventing young girls from getting involved with tech at a very young age except simple lack of interest. Anecdotally, I remember growing up and horsing around with many friends on our 8-bit computers before any of us had 2-digit ages. As I grew up the friends and computers changed, but the basic demographic didn't. When my peer group hit puberty we would have killed a member of the peer group to get a girl involved in our group of nerds. Many of my friends had sisters, none of their sisters cared the first thing about what we were doing. A few of their sisters showed some interest at times, but always seemed to have other priorities. This must be a shared experience as the type of group arrangement in the Big Bang Theory resonates with all of the tech industry males I know. It wasn't until half-way through high-school that we finally lured a couple of girls into our group, but we spent most of the time teaching them basic computer skills than nerding out with them. Nevertheless I never heard anybody put the female members of our group down, or act like they weren't capable of eventually doing the high-nerd things that we were doing. To the person, everybody was helpful, and the girls hung around and one even tried her hand at majoring in CS...before changing majors to International Relations. Happily, things have changed for the better. The number of women in tech has dramatically increased since those early days. It's not 50/50 by any stretch of the imagination. But there are actual women in tech these days doing cool things. They've self-selected to enter it and have put in the time to become good at it, and have managed to ignore the real sexism (such as it is) and that's very very cool. It's an additional barrier that many males don't have to deal with, but I think self-selection at an early age is an even larger one.
- an_actual_man 14y ago
  Care to provide an example of sexism to back-up your rant?
  - rada 14y ago
mdkess 14y ago
Sexism that I've noticed has been very subtle. I work with some very intelligent people, so I can't imagine anyone is overtly sexist (ie. thinking that women can't do this job, would not hire a person simply based on gender etc.), but still, there are problems. It's hard to write about sexism as a guy without feeling like you're coming off as sexist, but hey, I probably am. Also, it's hard to write about things without generalizing, so I don't think that these apply equally to all organizations, or all members of either gender, but as a population (of people and of companies), my thoughts are: For one, I think that recruiting is very masculine. "Solve impossible problems! Be a rockstar! Join the most hardcore developers in the world!". It works, but I think that men find a lot more appeal in it than women do. I think that things like mentoring and career growth are also important - not that that detracts from the end result of solving really hard problems, but I think that it presents it to a more growth oriented way. So I think that especially college recruiting should still focus on the fun, hard engineering aspect of the job, it should also focus on the growth side. We'll train you, you'll work with people - we want smart people, we'll make you into an awesome developer. Aggressiveness. If I want a raise, I'll go and ask for a raise. If I want something changed, I'll speak up about it. If I'm not happy with things, I'll quit and find another job. I think that this trait is more common in men, but it has certainly led to my success - pay quickly diverges with this strategy. Then there's the social aspect. Within the office, I think that everyone talks with everyone else on pretty equal footing. That said, while I'd be totally comfortable asking one of my male colleagues if he wanted to grab a beer after work, I'd be at least more hesitant to do so with a female colleague so as not to make them uncomfortable (being married makes this a little bit less awkward for me) and I think that's not unique. People don't want to come off as flirting with a co-worker, or make them uncomfortable, and so they don't go out after work except in a group (and have no other recourse when they are the only female developer in a staff of 50). The people who do go out though end up talking about work, and end up solving problems that they wouldn't have otherwise. They also get more opportunity to move between projects as their friends move around within the company. Then there's the awful problem of low numbers. If you meet a crummy male developer, well, he's a crummy developer. If you meet a bad female developer, she's probably a significant portion of all female developers that you've met - and so at least subconsciously, I think that for many the association becomes that female developers are bad (since hey, 33.3% of all female developers you've worked with aren't that great). Those are the main things I think. I think that all of these can be fixed, but I think that it takes conscious effort on the part of the company and the staff to get around them. I think at the heart of it is a bootstrapping problem - there are too few female developers because there are too few female developers, and as that changes culturally things will get better. We can definitely speed it up though. As an aside, I talked to a professor once about sexism in the computer science faculty, and he said something really interesting: while the top few students in the class are typically men due to the sheer number of people (if 90% of students are men, 10% are women, by pure statistics the top 1% will mostly be men), very rarely are women in the bottom 75% of the class. He attributed this to a lack of ego - there's a real masculine competitiveness to the computer science faculty (the goal to be "hardcore"), which women were generally excluded from. Without this ego drive, they weren't too proud to learn.
lsb 14y ago
This is a really unfortunate treatment of a serious topic. There are valuable insights, but the signal to noise ratio is too low. To be clear, I'm not launching the "I didn't like your TONE"; I'm launching the "I didn't like how you trivialized and subverted your own argument". To take just the first 3 points made: 1. Is the objection to the inclusion of a glossary? The serious criticism is that sexism is not rape, and makes it sound alarmist, though both are power displays. But to belittle the point by a solipsistic argument ( I don’t know about you but I haven’t exactly read a lot of news about rapes at web agencies lately ) only fuels people who would repurpose that line to say they haven't seen sexism at their company. 2. Is the objection to the inclusion of research? The serious criticism is that she rejects the exclusion of several self-collected data points, even if they have not been compiled by sociologists. But to subvert the point with a general aspersion to research at large ( Some research is great, but a lot of research is totally skewed to prove a point, and it’s not always easy to tell which is which ) only fuels people who would repurpose that line about the point trying to be made. 3. The serious criticism is that he has unsubstantiated assertions ( all women find a male-dominated industry “less appealing” and all-male groups less welcoming ), but the trivialization that immediately follows ( at the very least you need to preface them with ‘some research has found’ or ‘many women find that’ ) fundamentally denies the value that statistics, and empirical measurement, plays in social science. It sounds like there's a kernel of something valuable, but the signal to noise ratio is too low. I'd love to re-read this after a few revisions.
- killahpriest 14y ago
  Just because she didn't write as if her blog were an academic journal doesn't mean she isn't giving a serious topic the treatment it deserves. Her post exists to state that "the whole [.net] article is hyperbolic generalisation."
  - Tipzntrix 14y ago
    With a million and one blogs out there, you only get prestige and that great "this is a good blog" status if you have a high signal-to-noise ratio. Or you're blogging about the next Hollywood celeb breakup...but I think you see my point.
jewpiterjones 14y ago
Summary: I've been making wire frames for 7 months for an advertising agency so I'm qualified to comment on sexism in technology.
smoyer 14y ago
My experience with women in technology matches the author's but I'll also add that I don't understand why the women in an office together are so cut-throat and brutal towards each other. If you're trying to answer the question of why there are so few women in IT related roles, the best argument I've heard is that only men are stupid enough to accept the life-style often required by those positions. Sounds plausible to me.
s_baby 14y ago
On a sidenote, her food blog looks delicious.
- laurasanders 14y ago
  Thanks!
shawnee_ 14y ago
Faruk Ateş' at least got this part right: The tone of our debates – which often get quite heated – is frequently different based on the gender of the author(s). Sanders' article seems a little more rant-y than it should be for someone who is basing her experiences "in the industry" (UK) since April 2012. Not that a relatively small amount of experience means you can't have an opinion, but it can't be good to become totally blind to something just because you don't want to see it. Given a little bit of time, perhaps she will see that some sexism-based discrimination does exist -- not just in tech but pretty much every industry. But it's not the kind related to violence or "rape culture", but rather of pay. It is a cold, hard fact: women make less than men. Let's just say "I know a gal" who was fired from a company in the Valley because of that very discrimination. She had a master's degree and had been at the company almost 1+ year when she discovered that than the guy she was training, a dropout art school student whose "industry experience" amounted to working at Home Depot as a cashier was earning more. When my friend asked for equal pay for equal work, citing Obama's signing of Lily Ledbetter, her employers cut her salary to hourly, started writing her up for even the most minor infraction, and eventually ended up firing her. From what she tells me, she was unable to afford legal representation, Silicon Valley attorneys literally laughed at her (said they would not take the case for free), so she ended up signing a stack of legal mumbo jumbo that literally raped her of all her legal rights.
- jerrya 14y ago
  Let's just say "I know a gal" who was fired from a company in the Valley because of that very discrimination. She had a master's degree and had been at the company almost 1+ year when she discovered that than the guy she was training, a dropout art school student whose "industry experience" amounted to working at Home Depot as a cashier was earning more. When my friend asked for equal pay for equal work, citing Obama's signing of Lily Ledbetter, her employers cut her salary to hourly, started writing her up for even the most minor infraction, and eventually ended up firing her. From what she tells me, she was unable to afford legal representation, Silicon Valley attorneys literally laughed at her (said they would not take the case for free), so she ended up signing a stack of legal mumbo jumbo that literally raped her of all her legal rights. It's very hard to take this story at face value.
toadburglar 14y ago
I think the original article touches on some good points, and I can understand the need for Laura to voice her opinion, but the author MUST have wrote the article with good intentions. Personally, if I were really affected by an article I get in touch with the author, have a skype call and get all the concerns out in the open, and work together to revise the article so that both parties are happy with it. Then if the author didn't want to know etc, THEN I'd write the rebuttal. I don't want to be harsh here, but Laura could have shared her input privately and together created a exceptional article with valid points and different perspectives, but instead when to route of going public and (potentially) damaging the authors name in the process. We're all professionals, and can take criticisms, especially if they were voiced in a constructive way as a means to create something better. Laura's article begs the question whether her intentions are destructive, or whether her aim was to build and improve.
- zachinglis 14y ago
  I know both the writers very well. Faruk and I have known each other for 8 years, we tried to start a business together and I have a lot of respect for him. Laura is my flatmate and best friend. They tried to talk on Twitter beforehand, and it wasn't going very well (as Twitter does.) She wanted to write a post on sexism for a very long while now. This was a catalyst to finally get it done. She also wanted it to be public so people got a full view of the opinions. I, as a man, feel if I don't agree with posts like Faruk's, a lot of people take it as I don't care about women's rights. It can get messy easily. Her opinions were not destructive in my opinion. She was frustrated that yet another man was telling all us what sexism was and that she felt his intentions weren't necessarily good, but more "holier than thou" and that it didn't help anything. I have biases, so take it with a grain of salt.
- prodigal_erik 14y ago
  I don't view the low proportion of women in tech as a serious problem (I think it's determined by the typical obsessions of twelve-year-olds). I do view the expectation that they be kinder and less assertive as a problem. It's healthy that she's debating honestly, rather than settling for a compromised version of her points in someone else's work.
jinxedID 14y ago
My workplace's content filter denied access to this page. Sexism is everywhere.
- lucb1e 14y ago
  Seriously, you have a content filter? I mean, like the ones in primary school? Your boss trusts you that much? I'd seriously go looking for a better work place...
jenandre 14y ago
Ehh... Yeah. The original article was kind of a pile of crap, but it's hard to give this any credibility either. 1) She's only worked for 6 months 2) She works in UX, which is actually pretty well represented by women. My two cents from a woman who actually works in a technical position (I'm a developer) for > 10 years now. Also working in infosec, which is one of the least represented when it comes to gender balance. Note: this is all totally anecdotal. IMHO, "Imposter Syndrome" is one of the primary reasons we don't have more women in the industry, and it's reinforced heavily because of the culture of most workplaces. Why? When you emphasize a "brogrammer" and "rockstar" culture it's hard to believe that you can step in there and be just as "good as the guys." When I'm talking about brogramming culture, I am not talking about silly shit like they turned the woman's bathroom to a man's one (lol, they did this at one company I worked at) or that you need to stop making fart jokes etc. I mean the idea we are all super awesome rockstars that sling amazing code and everyone else around you is shit and an idiot for not knowing something that you (and the other guys) know. When you're already feeling kind of alienated for being different, this can be really intimidating (and it's worse when people point it out -- I was asked an interview for a programming teaching position at a university BY A PROFESSOR "how will you handle it if people don't take you seriously as a female?") I struggled with this for many years. I always assumed everyone around me knew more about computers (they didn't) and their code was 100% perfect (lol, it wasn't). The effect for me was I was afraid to ask questions and when I wanted to figure out something, I did the research/reading on my own because I felt I had to prove that I was 110% competent - imagine how much time I could have saved and how much faster I would have progressed if in those early days I had just felt more comfortable asking people for help. Because of this, I think corporate environments are an easier more comfortable place for a woman to work in a programming job than startups and small companies (again, this isn't universal). Which is sad, because I love working at a small company. And the startup space could benefit from women (since there are so few people usually in a startup, esp if you're building a product that will be widely used by women, it is invaluable to have that perspective). 2) What can you do about it? Well, if you're a woman, and you want to be in the tech field because you love working with computers, and you continue to pursue it, you're doing something already. You're an example to every other woman. I think only in this way, eventually the gender balance will even out. If you're a guy, and you want to hire a woman to join your technical team, emphasize the collaborative nature and how much they will learn on the job. Hire for smarts and ability to learn, not just knowing how to write a rails app in one day and knowing how to debug a deadlock with gdb etc.
lsiebert 14y ago
So sexism, like any form of discrimination, doesn't just come in shocking bright red, "hey honey, why don't we go into the copy room for some hubba hubba". Rape can be a sexist act of violence, that's an extreme. Just because that extreme exists doesn't mean that less obvious forms of sexism and discrimination aren't ugly and evil. A really pernicious dirty disgusting thing about sexism (and racism) is that it can be subtle, and hidden, and still hurt people. Pay rates, job discrimination, advancement are examples. Pressure to conform to a feminine ideal or be see as "bitchy" or overly aggressive. So yeah, that's one bad thing. There are plenty of bad things. And sexism is bad for your business. Because discrimination doesn't just mean that some people are privileged over others. It means viewpoints, ideas, projects etc. from people who are women are not given the attention they deserve not because they are lacking, but because their source lacks testes. Discrimination doesn't just hurt women, it hurts everybody. You advance a guy over a more deserving woman... you are hurting your business. sexism is suboptimal. It doesn't even have to be that obvious. You make a person feel unhappy or uncomfortable at work and the work their team is doing will suffer, if only because of the communication problems that arise. Even if you aren't sexist (and it's hard to be a hundred percept free from stuff like that) sexism still informs the industry. The things you do that contribute to you being a programmer are often informed by gender roles and expectations. Math class for example. Anyway, I recently came up with a test for sexism. It's a test I fail, but it makes me think. Ask yourself, is it better for something, a hobby, a sport, whatever to be manly or womanly?
desireco42 14y ago
I would say that sexism in IT is not the major issue, there will always be places where there might be some, but I frankly never encountered those and women were treated well in all the places. Point that @mdkess makes about when female dev is bad it kind of is more visible and projects more to others is also good. I worked with some exceptional girls that code like best of us. However some other roles in IT might be better for women to start, like BA and QA and project management where frankly they excel. What IT or tech industry could use more is professionalism which would also help with work/life balance. I think that would bring up pay which I consider low, even though it is better then other fields. It would benefit from more women entering the field, but how to attract them is tough problem to solve.
- panda_person 14y ago
  "However some other roles in IT might be better for women to start, like BA and QA and project management where frankly they excel." Yeah, that's not itself sexist or condescending or anything...
  - trhtrsh 14y ago
    GP was bizarrely tone-deaf in his comment, but BA, QA, PM are a could vantage point form which to attack gender inequality. They are jobs expect less technical prowess, and thus leave open an opportunity for a woman to show crossover talent (a BA knows how to write SQL? Wow!) and chisel away stereotypes. Now, it's a ridiculous rigamarole to have to go through, but it may be strategically effective in wearing down barriers.
stcredzero 14y ago
> The point of this is simply to show that, unlike what the article will have you believe, it is entirely possible to be a woman in the tech industry, like your job, get on well with your colleagues (even when most of them are, shock horror, men), and be treated in a totally fair way. I don't think any of that is contrary to the original article. I'm not sure that implying it is is entirely honest.
jgw 14y ago
I'm quite curious about how sexism affects the broader tech industry as a whole, as it seems to not affect my niche area much at all. I work in ASIC design, and we have probably even fewer women than software development. In general, I have never had the impression that sexism is much of a problem in our narrow little field. But since I'm male, I thought that perhaps I was blind to the problem. So I asked a female colleague, and she said she had never experienced any sexism on the job, period. Now, we're a small company, and I like to think we're a pretty progressive, decent bunch, so no surprises that she's never seen it internally. But we're also a professional services company, so we work with many clients, big and small, and we don't control their hiring process. But no - she's never experienced any sort of sexual discrimination at work with clients, either. I've not been able to come up with a plausible explanation of why the problem does not seem to affect us in the same way that it might in a different sub-field.
sndr 14y ago
Whoever asks questions or needs an opinnion(woman or man) must understand that first: before you begin to do so, you took a responsibility to accept what ever is being said, because you don't know the other end whos anwsering. let me ......... 1nce more.... !!!!!you don't know!!!!! there are too many variables Woman or men, what ever.... there are always 2 sides of the story sexism = vicious circle
collegeappz 14y ago
10/2 article on dearth of women in the tech industry. It mentions a key point, in its first paragraph copied below. I agree (and I'm a woman). It’s an important question: why are there so few women working in the IT and telecoms sector? It might be one of the rare times that The Guardian has actually asked an interesting question in fact. The answer is, I’m afraid, that on average men and women are different.
- mamoswined 14y ago
  I think it is interesting, but what really fascinates me is that I'm one of the only America women in my office and the only one who doesn't come from an Asian immigrant family. When I talk to my American female friends, most of them seem to think IT and computing in general is boring and dull. They wanted interesting careers and didn't think our sector fit the bill. The immigrant/first gen women in my office have a totally different attitude. They were encouraged by their family to pursue the career with the most stable potential, not the most interesting one.
  - collegeappz 14y ago
    Funny. Being a newer-bie into the tech world, this arena has so much more to offer than just straight coding, which I think is like learning a language - as intelligent as learning French, Spanish, or any other. And more crafting the code to produce an awesome product - front end or back end is pretty thrilling. Especially for people who like instant gratification, which includes lawyers, teachers, and others in non-boring and dull communities. But alas, the only way attract more females (and of the box ones, too) is to have those in the world. Like attracts like - a universal axiom.
    - mamoswined 14y ago
      Yeah, I like it to. I wish I could convince other ladies otherwise. Plus, it's just a job, and it's a good job that allows me to have good job security. I think their jobs are boring. Sure, they are working in "cool" fields, but a lot of them are essentially doing secretary work.
rootedbox 14y ago
What he wrote was a primer.. describing the basics of what sexism is.. in fact in his terminology portion he pretty much breaks down what any gender equality book would break down, and he does so in a very concise manor. Also you MUST address rape culture when addressing sexism. Being dismissive of it is what leads to sexism. Reminds me of that kixeye manager "Let me tell you, it's ok to make jokes about slavery because that's over."
- zachinglis 14y ago
  Rape and sexism are not the same thing. Rape is genderless. Despite the fact that rape happens more to women, it happens to both genders. Secondly, just because someone is sexist it doesn't correlate to whether they're rapists or not. Sexism is about ignorance, rape is about many things often anger or control. If you mention rape any time someone says "I get paid less because I'm a girl", it sensationalizes it. It's like mentioning slavery, every time someone says "I'm only paid minimum wage"
  - rootedbox 14y ago
    So blacks don't get paid less, get higher interest rates, and jailed more frequently; because of slavery? All class systems invoke a behaviors which is the complete opposite of Meritocracy; They are sensational from one viewpoint but are still prevalent in the class system. If you do not openly address those then you are in fact being passive in allowing the system to continue. Just because you treat women with dignity, and you have friends of multiple races.. Simply means you are not bigoted. You still could be a racist, and sexist. These are some things Faruk Ateş is bringing up in his primer, but is being lost by those who in general are privileged.
    - zachinglis 14y ago
      He's bringing up valid points surrounded by the word rape. It's almost a Godwin's Law. He's presenting the most extreme example again and again in a post that otherwise has some validity. Of course I disagree with rape. It's a very personal matter close to my heart for many reasons. But it is an extreme outcome of sexism, it is not the problem because of sexism nor is it the reason sexism happens.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
konstruktor 14y ago
I would lever call a woman I interact with in a professional context a girl. That's so Mad Men. Am I the only one who considers this headline inappropriate for a posting about gender issues at work?
- zachinglis 14y ago
  I'm confused. She's not allowed to call herself a girl?
  - trhtrsh 14y ago
    She can, you can't. Similar to the use of "nigga" or "[black] boy" It's a (short-term) tactical subversion move to reduce the power imbalance in cases of extreme sexism, but as a long-term strategy it is incapable of reaching equality.
    - zachinglis 14y ago
      Did I call her a girl? And as far as she's concerned, I'm allowed to call her anything I like (within reason.) Granted, that doesn't mean I should.
- babblefrog 14y ago
  I think some of that is generational. The women I work with who are my generation (I'm in my 50s) find that offensive, whereas the ones from the generation younger don't see anything wrong with it. I think the language is changing, where the previous generation would say men and girls, and my generation would say men and women, the next generation seems to be moving toward girls and boys.
rada 14y ago
The original "Primer On Sexism" : 8 points and dead, 0 comments The Rebuttal: 150 points and rising, 140+ comments If that in and of itself doesn't say volumes about the sexist attitudes of the majority of HN readers - and as such, the tech industry as a whole - I don't know what does. Surely a long, thoughtful article, with tons of context in the form of links and research, written by the creator of Modernizr and a former Appler beats a shouty "enraged me so much" rebuttal by a designer at a minor UK web agency for 7 months and prior to that, a movie usher for 2 years? People on HN are fond of saying things like, "I couldn't care less whether someone has a vagina or a penis, as long as they write great software". So how come Laura The Troll is getting so much attention for "telling it like it is", just because she is an "actual girl"? I am an "actual girl" too and I am seriously disappointed. We were offered a 5-star meal but we pounced on a 99-cent gas station burger because it had a picture of a ripe tomato on it, so hey, it must be healthy. And Laura, if you are reading this, a small bit of advice for you. Next time an article "enrages" you, re-read it and I guarantee you will see that it doesn't say what you think it does.
- Aloisius 14y ago
  Agreed. People seem to be incredibly invested in believing that intelligent people could ever be sexist. When I've called out people over the years for being sexist or racist, often they don't even realize immediately they'd said something offensive because it usually is subtle rather than overt - off-color jokes, sexualized images or inappropriate topics.
  - illuminate 14y ago
    It reminds me of the whole Skepchick versus Dawkins & the "MRAs" drama that happened months back.
- zachinglis 14y ago
  I'm really disappointed you decided to use phrases like "Laura The Troll." It's funny. Those who've disagreed with Laura have come down to name calling and such. Faruk's a good guy. But because he worked for Apple means nothing. Absolutely squat. If you judge people's worth on who they've worked for, then that's worrying. It's not who you've worked for - it's what you've done (Modernizr was a good link in this.) I know many Googler's, Appler's who spend a lot of time writing minor code for example. But how does working for Apple and writing Modenizr qualify him to speak about sexism? That's got nothing to do with the topic at hand. Laura's not the only person who's expressed this view. Many people in the comemnts have agreed (and disagreed) I think it doesn't say volumes about the sexist attitudes. It says volumes that people agree with her more. I'm sorry it doesn't fit in your belief box, but that doesn't make it trolling, nor does it make it wrong.
peterwwillis 14y ago
<Insert experience of a single person and accept them as gospel for an entire industry> Also pretty ironic that the author uses sweeping generalizations to dismiss the cited article's sweeping generalizations. Is this what we've regressed to? Meta-useless articles of people ranting about issues without any proactive work towards understanding, or god forbid, solutions? When are people going to stop ranting about the problem and start fixing it? clicks next story
Tipzntrix 14y ago
I actually have to wonder if "owned" ever had this much of an effect on black people as "raped" did on women when it came about in gaming slang.
- trhtrsh 14y ago
  "owned" comes from a different meaning originally (owning a machine, and then identifying the machine with its user), whereas as the "rape" etymology is direct, but then convergent evolution leads us to insults like "I owned you like Thomas Jefferson owned slaves".
eavc 14y ago
"Isn’t social research by its nature normally based on anecdotal evidence?" No. That's the very antithesis of what social research is, by its nature.
- zachinglis 14y ago
  If you read his Tweets, when Laura tried to contact him on Twitter before. Anything she said was "wrong" because of evidence suggests otherwise. She literally couldn't give her personal views, because evidence denies it. But let's be fair, you can make research say whatever you want. Especially social research. It's a very valid thing, but it should not be taken as gospel.
bobsy 14y ago
Isn't sexism like anything else? There are extreme cases, quite often though just speaking up resolves it. I have a stutter and I have been in many jobs where I have been the butt of some jokes. I have been overlooked or talked over. People have played 'guess the word' when i get stuck... i could go on. I find in the vast majority of cases a quiet word, a quick bit of education or just straight up shutting someone down makes such problems perminantly go away. There is sexism in the tech industry, i am sure there is some racism and whatever else as well. There will always be people who intentionally or not say something that offends. Your work place experience will depend on how you react to that. My experience of the tech industry has shown that it handles complaints well and deals with issues that arise in a positive way. I think this is what people should focus on. I saw a documentary about a fish market where women should be good wives at home. The few women who worked there were subject to daily sexist remarks. They had a choice. Ignore it or quit... There are far worse places to work than in technology
pwf 14y ago
> I’ve found men to be more laid back, friendlier, and easier to talk to than women. I had to stop reading there. Is this article supposed to be an example of what real sexism looks like?
army 14y ago
I don't think the original article was very good, and I'm glad Laura has had positive experiences (plenty of us guys do try to make sure its a welcoming environment for everyone). There are certainly plenty of well-meaning people out there who have subconscious biases (and plenty of assholes too) so I think at least its good that the topic is brought up occasionally.
godisdad 14y ago
This reminds me of the so-called Tiger Mother. Someone who reinforces the prevailing beliefs but claims credibility due to their status as a member of the group in situ. I suspect the author is actually a male graduate student in the UK.

168 points by zachinglis 14y ago

drama247365 14y ago

Go make me a sammage while I read this.

an_actual_man 14y ago

How does such a waste of bandwidth even get 27 points? Is this site infested with feminists or what?

zachinglis 14y ago
So you think posts like this shouldn't be on HN, but comments like this should be? That's not the Hacker News I love. What a useless comment. If you actually read it, it's against over the top feminism.
- gruseom 14y ago
  So you think posts like this shouldn't be on HN, but comments like this should be? That's the best way of making that point that I've ever seen.
xionon 14y ago
How about some real criticism instead of just fear and anger at a woman expressing an opinion contrary to your own?
seraph787 14y ago
As a male feminist. I wouldn't even up vote this. She does point out why the article is stupid but I think most people would agree on that point already.
- zachinglis 14y ago
  You'd be surprised. A lot of people took the original post as gospel. Some because if they didn't, they'd be labelled against women. (It's a sort-of mob mentality.)
  - youngtaff 14y ago
    The original article in .net mag was really difficult to read, I gave up part way through. After reading Laura's post I went back to it but no still gave up part way through. The original author was on a hiding to nothing as I think it's really difficult for guys to well write about sexism
- D3 14y ago
  >As a male feminist. Say what? Shouldn't you be for equality rather than women's rights? Men are people too!
laurasanders 14y ago
Did you actually read the post? It's an argument AGAINST the .net article that argues that all women are constantly subjected to sexism in this industry
crntaylor 14y ago
Taking feminism to be broadly the belief that women and men should have equal social, political and economic rights, I would be very upset if the site wasn't infested with feminists.
- an_actual_man 14y ago
  You're describing egalitarianism, not feminism. When you see an article being advertised as "by an actual girl", you know it's not about equality.
  - AndrewDucker 14y ago
    "Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women."
    - an_actual_man 14y ago
      Wow, people still fall for that bullshit? Where did you take that from, jezebel?
    - papsosouid 14y ago
      The problem with that is that people's perception of what it means is more important than what is in a dictionary. Given the dictionary definition, one would have to assume 100% of women would be feminists. By the dictionary definition, it makes no sense for any women not to be a feminist. Yet 75% of women refuse to self-identify as feminists. The baggage that comes with the term has too much weight for the dictionary definition to matter any more.
      - Cushman 14y ago
        Think a little about what you're saying here. For example, the dictionary definition of atheism is a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods. However, many religious people believe that atheism is a conscious rejection of an existing God, a deliberate embracing of evil, and that all atheists are intrinsically amoral or indeed immoral. This understanding is so common that most people who do not believe in a god refuse to self-identify as atheists, and those who do are reviled somewhat less than child molesters. My point here should be obvious: You're right. If you don't believe in God, you are an atheist. If you think your social rights should be independent of your genitals or gender identity, you are a feminist. But if you don't use the word to describe yourself (and that's forgivable), it's not because it has "baggage"-- it's because hateful organizations and individuals have been attacking the word as a proxy for attacking the concept, and it is working. We don't have to let them off the hook for this.
novalis 14y ago
I think this is living proof that throw away accounts should be dealt with on here. If someone really wants to participate, a good 6/12 hours cool down without posting privileges would do nicely. I don't think anyone wins anything on here with this sort of reddit novelty account phenomenon. It will not stop all trolling, just this sort of troll.
- an_actual_man 14y ago
  Poor thing, you actually have to read different opinions now! The horror, the horror.
- randallsquared 14y ago
  They're already green, so you know which ones to ignore if that's how you feel.
- corin_ 14y ago
  9 times out of 10 I agree with you, but HN is a rare site on which there are often genuine causes for a throwaway account, when people have good input to make on a thread but for work related reasons can't do it under a name that their colleagues/boss/etc. might recognise.

jerrya 14y ago

Interesting article, along with the comment on it. As a man in the tech industry, I saw sexism quite a long time ago -- in that a coworker benefited from a pay lawsuit. But that was several decades ago. I haven't seen much sexism in the industry since then, but it could be that my views are limited and the companies and teams I have worked on limited. So this article felt good to see. Maybe what I think I've been seeing (or not seeing) is not far off the mark. Related: could it be that after declining for decades that sexism in the population has gotten worse over time? What is with you people?

thisone 14y ago
that's my problem with these articles and posts. They seem to suppose that there aren't more women because of sexism. I'm not an industry researcher, so all I have to go on is my experiences. I was a tiny kid, playing with Simons BASIC and having fun. But I never thought of it as a career path. No one I knew was in IT, no one in the family, or friend's families was in IT. At school it wasn't something that was talked about as a career path (though nursing and teaching were). I didn't realize I wanted to be a developer until I got a random part time job at university and built websites and databases. (I was majoring in engineering at the time) That left me with a big gap in skill set from everyone else my age who had been playing around with tech since they were pre-teens. But things are relatively hunky-dory now. But I always think, what if I hadn't gotten that random job? Why hadn't I been exposed to this career before then? Would it have been industry sexism that meant I wasn't a developer? No. It would have been lack of exposure to the possibility at a young age.
- __alexs 14y ago
  > Would it have been industry sexism that meant I wasn't a developer? No. It would have been lack of exposure to the possibility at a young age. Not being told that certain opportunities are open to you because of your gender is sexism. This goes beyond child hood. People assume because of you're gender you will or will not be into certain job prospects and other activities. This is sexism.
  - 14y ago

Toshio 14y ago

Randi Harper a.k.a. FreeBSD Girl was interviewed for the FLOSS Weekly podcast and she said that every minute spent on discussing gender issues in technology is a wasted minute that should be better spent building free software.

an_actual_man 14y ago
Cool. I've been saying it for years, but because I don't have a vagina, my opinion is considered sexist. B-but feminism is about equality, r-right?
- zachinglis 14y ago
  Aggressive behavior will get you nowhere. ESPECIALLY because of your earlier post. This is not against men having a view. But a woman is far more likely to understand sexism AGAINST women - because of (shock horror) being women.
  - an_actual_man 14y ago
    Expressing an opinion is considered "aggressive behavior" now? Ahahaha, oh feminists, you're so crazy. Anyway, you're saying that being female per se makes someone's opinion more valuable, which is a blatantly sexist opinion itself. Congratulations for shooting yourself in the foot and saying goodbye to what little credibility you had. Next!
    - shardling 14y ago
      I'd like to appeal to HN to just ignore this poster -- nothing fruitful will come from engaging.
    - ktizo 14y ago
      So, you have only just registered an hour ago under a username that is chosen to reference the title of one article, purely in order to troll that article. You should probably not bother trying to argue from a position of credibility really.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

KaoruAoiShiho 14y ago

Nice post. But I would like to hear on whether or not you disagree with the actual point that he's making. Do you think rape jokes can be brushed off or should the tellers be actively censured instead?

its_so_general 14y ago

I don't know. This was my reaction when the CEO of a tiny startup I was helping out declared, out of the blue for no reason, and in complete pigheaded seriousness "I would never hire a woman at this company." I thought to myeself: "Wow you're fucking retarded. You've just shot out the only two qualified experts in my network (for a couple of important roles) who we could possibly get to help us out on terms we can afford, and you don't have a network of your own - and now I see why, because you're fucking retarded." You will also note that I didn't swim against this guy's current for that long. But I did have a job with him, and if I were a woman I wouldn't have had that job with him, because he's an idiot. A sexist idiot or just an idiot? This is a question of definitions. By the definition of sexism, he is a sexist idiot. As long as he actually refuses to hire qualified women, his whole company is sexist.

covati 14y ago

I only skimmed the original article, and I think this woman makes some great point about how absurd his article is. She has some good points about her experience, however, as she has only had 6 months in this field, and that is working in one company, I'd say she's not the right person to write a rebuttal to anything about the current state of it's culture. Someone who has worked in multiple companies, in different regions, and at varying levels of organizations would be much more fit. Again, I'm not saying her article is crap, the bulk of it is a good counterpoint, I'd just like to see someone with a bit of a broader view way in from a woman's perspective.

laurasanders 14y ago
I'd like to hear a version from someone who has been in the industry a lot longer too. I specifically added the section at the bottom explaining that I hadn't been in the industry all that long so I wasn't pretending to be speaking from a much more experienced position than I am. From the comments I've received so far there are definitely women who have been in the industry a lot longer than I have that share my point of view though.
- KuraFire 14y ago
  What, you mean like someone who’s been in the industry for fifteen years, worked at companies both small and large, startups and corporations, and in four different countries?
sethg 14y ago
Gloria Steinem once remarked that women in our culture are valued when they are young and pretty, while men in our culture are valued when they are old and rich: therefore, as they grow older, women become more radical and men become more conservative. (As a man, I thought this was a very insightful observation... when I first read it... many years ago. :-)

shakesbeard 14y ago

I'm a young, white male, aka privileged person. I've read quite a lot about feminism (and anti-racism for that matter), and struggled to get a clear picture of when my actions are appreciated. I think the most important lesson I've learned is that I must listen; because I do not have any first hand experience.

white_young_man 14y ago
I'm a young, white man too. Care to tell me how this makes me a privileged person?
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- optymizer 14y ago
  I think he/she may be referring to this sentence in the original article (on netmagazine.com): "In today's Western society, being male, white and straight gives you three huge privileges over everyone else"
- EvilTerran 14y ago
  Does this help? http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Privilege_checklist http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Privilege_checklist

bane 14y ago

There is certainly sexism in the tech industry. It's not terribly common or widespread, but it's there. But the tech industry is also famously self-selective. Many people in the industry self-selected for it when they were pre-teens. Spending hours upon hours programming in BASIC or whatever on their C64s or TRS-80s before they were out of elementary school...before thoughts of sexism enter the consciousness. There is very little preventing young girls from getting involved with tech at a very young age except simple lack of interest. Anecdotally, I remember growing up and horsing around with many friends on our 8-bit computers before any of us had 2-digit ages. As I grew up the friends and computers changed, but the basic demographic didn't. When my peer group hit puberty we would have killed a member of the peer group to get a girl involved in our group of nerds. Many of my friends had sisters, none of their sisters cared the first thing about what we were doing. A few of their sisters showed some interest at times, but always seemed to have other priorities. This must be a shared experience as the type of group arrangement in the Big Bang Theory resonates with all of the tech industry males I know. It wasn't until half-way through high-school that we finally lured a couple of girls into our group, but we spent most of the time teaching them basic computer skills than nerding out with them. Nevertheless I never heard anybody put the female members of our group down, or act like they weren't capable of eventually doing the high-nerd things that we were doing. To the person, everybody was helpful, and the girls hung around and one even tried her hand at majoring in CS...before changing majors to International Relations. Happily, things have changed for the better. The number of women in tech has dramatically increased since those early days. It's not 50/50 by any stretch of the imagination. But there are actual women in tech these days doing cool things. They've self-selected to enter it and have put in the time to become good at it, and have managed to ignore the real sexism (such as it is) and that's very very cool. It's an additional barrier that many males don't have to deal with, but I think self-selection at an early age is an even larger one.

an_actual_man 14y ago
Care to provide an example of sexism to back-up your rant?
- rada 14y ago

mdkess 14y ago

Sexism that I've noticed has been very subtle. I work with some very intelligent people, so I can't imagine anyone is overtly sexist (ie. thinking that women can't do this job, would not hire a person simply based on gender etc.), but still, there are problems. It's hard to write about sexism as a guy without feeling like you're coming off as sexist, but hey, I probably am. Also, it's hard to write about things without generalizing, so I don't think that these apply equally to all organizations, or all members of either gender, but as a population (of people and of companies), my thoughts are: For one, I think that recruiting is very masculine. "Solve impossible problems! Be a rockstar! Join the most hardcore developers in the world!". It works, but I think that men find a lot more appeal in it than women do. I think that things like mentoring and career growth are also important - not that that detracts from the end result of solving really hard problems, but I think that it presents it to a more growth oriented way. So I think that especially college recruiting should still focus on the fun, hard engineering aspect of the job, it should also focus on the growth side. We'll train you, you'll work with people - we want smart people, we'll make you into an awesome developer. Aggressiveness. If I want a raise, I'll go and ask for a raise. If I want something changed, I'll speak up about it. If I'm not happy with things, I'll quit and find another job. I think that this trait is more common in men, but it has certainly led to my success - pay quickly diverges with this strategy. Then there's the social aspect. Within the office, I think that everyone talks with everyone else on pretty equal footing. That said, while I'd be totally comfortable asking one of my male colleagues if he wanted to grab a beer after work, I'd be at least more hesitant to do so with a female colleague so as not to make them uncomfortable (being married makes this a little bit less awkward for me) and I think that's not unique. People don't want to come off as flirting with a co-worker, or make them uncomfortable, and so they don't go out after work except in a group (and have no other recourse when they are the only female developer in a staff of 50). The people who do go out though end up talking about work, and end up solving problems that they wouldn't have otherwise. They also get more opportunity to move between projects as their friends move around within the company. Then there's the awful problem of low numbers. If you meet a crummy male developer, well, he's a crummy developer. If you meet a bad female developer, she's probably a significant portion of all female developers that you've met - and so at least subconsciously, I think that for many the association becomes that female developers are bad (since hey, 33.3% of all female developers you've worked with aren't that great). Those are the main things I think. I think that all of these can be fixed, but I think that it takes conscious effort on the part of the company and the staff to get around them. I think at the heart of it is a bootstrapping problem - there are too few female developers because there are too few female developers, and as that changes culturally things will get better. We can definitely speed it up though. As an aside, I talked to a professor once about sexism in the computer science faculty, and he said something really interesting: while the top few students in the class are typically men due to the sheer number of people (if 90% of students are men, 10% are women, by pure statistics the top 1% will mostly be men), very rarely are women in the bottom 75% of the class. He attributed this to a lack of ego - there's a real masculine competitiveness to the computer science faculty (the goal to be "hardcore"), which women were generally excluded from. Without this ego drive, they weren't too proud to learn.

lsb 14y ago

This is a really unfortunate treatment of a serious topic. There are valuable insights, but the signal to noise ratio is too low. To be clear, I'm not launching the "I didn't like your TONE"; I'm launching the "I didn't like how you trivialized and subverted your own argument". To take just the first 3 points made: 1. Is the objection to the inclusion of a glossary? The serious criticism is that sexism is not rape, and makes it sound alarmist, though both are power displays. But to belittle the point by a solipsistic argument ( I don’t know about you but I haven’t exactly read a lot of news about rapes at web agencies lately ) only fuels people who would repurpose that line to say they haven't seen sexism at their company. 2. Is the objection to the inclusion of research? The serious criticism is that she rejects the exclusion of several self-collected data points, even if they have not been compiled by sociologists. But to subvert the point with a general aspersion to research at large ( Some research is great, but a lot of research is totally skewed to prove a point, and it’s not always easy to tell which is which ) only fuels people who would repurpose that line about the point trying to be made. 3. The serious criticism is that he has unsubstantiated assertions ( all women find a male-dominated industry “less appealing” and all-male groups less welcoming ), but the trivialization that immediately follows ( at the very least you need to preface them with ‘some research has found’ or ‘many women find that’ ) fundamentally denies the value that statistics, and empirical measurement, plays in social science. It sounds like there's a kernel of something valuable, but the signal to noise ratio is too low. I'd love to re-read this after a few revisions.

killahpriest 14y ago
Just because she didn't write as if her blog were an academic journal doesn't mean she isn't giving a serious topic the treatment it deserves. Her post exists to state that "the whole [.net] article is hyperbolic generalisation."
- Tipzntrix 14y ago
  With a million and one blogs out there, you only get prestige and that great "this is a good blog" status if you have a high signal-to-noise ratio. Or you're blogging about the next Hollywood celeb breakup...but I think you see my point.

jewpiterjones 14y ago

Summary: I've been making wire frames for 7 months for an advertising agency so I'm qualified to comment on sexism in technology.

smoyer 14y ago

My experience with women in technology matches the author's but I'll also add that I don't understand why the women in an office together are so cut-throat and brutal towards each other. If you're trying to answer the question of why there are so few women in IT related roles, the best argument I've heard is that only men are stupid enough to accept the life-style often required by those positions. Sounds plausible to me.

s_baby 14y ago

On a sidenote, her food blog looks delicious.

laurasanders 14y ago
Thanks!

shawnee_ 14y ago

Faruk Ateş' at least got this part right: The tone of our debates – which often get quite heated – is frequently different based on the gender of the author(s). Sanders' article seems a little more rant-y than it should be for someone who is basing her experiences "in the industry" (UK) since April 2012. Not that a relatively small amount of experience means you can't have an opinion, but it can't be good to become totally blind to something just because you don't want to see it. Given a little bit of time, perhaps she will see that some sexism-based discrimination does exist -- not just in tech but pretty much every industry. But it's not the kind related to violence or "rape culture", but rather of pay. It is a cold, hard fact: women make less than men. Let's just say "I know a gal" who was fired from a company in the Valley because of that very discrimination. She had a master's degree and had been at the company almost 1+ year when she discovered that than the guy she was training, a dropout art school student whose "industry experience" amounted to working at Home Depot as a cashier was earning more. When my friend asked for equal pay for equal work, citing Obama's signing of Lily Ledbetter, her employers cut her salary to hourly, started writing her up for even the most minor infraction, and eventually ended up firing her. From what she tells me, she was unable to afford legal representation, Silicon Valley attorneys literally laughed at her (said they would not take the case for free), so she ended up signing a stack of legal mumbo jumbo that literally raped her of all her legal rights.

jerrya 14y ago
Let's just say "I know a gal" who was fired from a company in the Valley because of that very discrimination. She had a master's degree and had been at the company almost 1+ year when she discovered that than the guy she was training, a dropout art school student whose "industry experience" amounted to working at Home Depot as a cashier was earning more. When my friend asked for equal pay for equal work, citing Obama's signing of Lily Ledbetter, her employers cut her salary to hourly, started writing her up for even the most minor infraction, and eventually ended up firing her. From what she tells me, she was unable to afford legal representation, Silicon Valley attorneys literally laughed at her (said they would not take the case for free), so she ended up signing a stack of legal mumbo jumbo that literally raped her of all her legal rights. It's very hard to take this story at face value.

toadburglar 14y ago

I think the original article touches on some good points, and I can understand the need for Laura to voice her opinion, but the author MUST have wrote the article with good intentions. Personally, if I were really affected by an article I get in touch with the author, have a skype call and get all the concerns out in the open, and work together to revise the article so that both parties are happy with it. Then if the author didn't want to know etc, THEN I'd write the rebuttal. I don't want to be harsh here, but Laura could have shared her input privately and together created a exceptional article with valid points and different perspectives, but instead when to route of going public and (potentially) damaging the authors name in the process. We're all professionals, and can take criticisms, especially if they were voiced in a constructive way as a means to create something better. Laura's article begs the question whether her intentions are destructive, or whether her aim was to build and improve.

zachinglis 14y ago
I know both the writers very well. Faruk and I have known each other for 8 years, we tried to start a business together and I have a lot of respect for him. Laura is my flatmate and best friend. They tried to talk on Twitter beforehand, and it wasn't going very well (as Twitter does.) She wanted to write a post on sexism for a very long while now. This was a catalyst to finally get it done. She also wanted it to be public so people got a full view of the opinions. I, as a man, feel if I don't agree with posts like Faruk's, a lot of people take it as I don't care about women's rights. It can get messy easily. Her opinions were not destructive in my opinion. She was frustrated that yet another man was telling all us what sexism was and that she felt his intentions weren't necessarily good, but more "holier than thou" and that it didn't help anything. I have biases, so take it with a grain of salt.
prodigal_erik 14y ago
I don't view the low proportion of women in tech as a serious problem (I think it's determined by the typical obsessions of twelve-year-olds). I do view the expectation that they be kinder and less assertive as a problem. It's healthy that she's debating honestly, rather than settling for a compromised version of her points in someone else's work.

jinxedID 14y ago

My workplace's content filter denied access to this page. Sexism is everywhere.

lucb1e 14y ago
Seriously, you have a content filter? I mean, like the ones in primary school? Your boss trusts you that much? I'd seriously go looking for a better work place...

jenandre 14y ago

Ehh... Yeah. The original article was kind of a pile of crap, but it's hard to give this any credibility either. 1) She's only worked for 6 months 2) She works in UX, which is actually pretty well represented by women. My two cents from a woman who actually works in a technical position (I'm a developer) for > 10 years now. Also working in infosec, which is one of the least represented when it comes to gender balance. Note: this is all totally anecdotal. IMHO, "Imposter Syndrome" is one of the primary reasons we don't have more women in the industry, and it's reinforced heavily because of the culture of most workplaces. Why? When you emphasize a "brogrammer" and "rockstar" culture it's hard to believe that you can step in there and be just as "good as the guys." When I'm talking about brogramming culture, I am not talking about silly shit like they turned the woman's bathroom to a man's one (lol, they did this at one company I worked at) or that you need to stop making fart jokes etc. I mean the idea we are all super awesome rockstars that sling amazing code and everyone else around you is shit and an idiot for not knowing something that you (and the other guys) know. When you're already feeling kind of alienated for being different, this can be really intimidating (and it's worse when people point it out -- I was asked an interview for a programming teaching position at a university BY A PROFESSOR "how will you handle it if people don't take you seriously as a female?") I struggled with this for many years. I always assumed everyone around me knew more about computers (they didn't) and their code was 100% perfect (lol, it wasn't). The effect for me was I was afraid to ask questions and when I wanted to figure out something, I did the research/reading on my own because I felt I had to prove that I was 110% competent - imagine how much time I could have saved and how much faster I would have progressed if in those early days I had just felt more comfortable asking people for help. Because of this, I think corporate environments are an easier more comfortable place for a woman to work in a programming job than startups and small companies (again, this isn't universal). Which is sad, because I love working at a small company. And the startup space could benefit from women (since there are so few people usually in a startup, esp if you're building a product that will be widely used by women, it is invaluable to have that perspective). 2) What can you do about it? Well, if you're a woman, and you want to be in the tech field because you love working with computers, and you continue to pursue it, you're doing something already. You're an example to every other woman. I think only in this way, eventually the gender balance will even out. If you're a guy, and you want to hire a woman to join your technical team, emphasize the collaborative nature and how much they will learn on the job. Hire for smarts and ability to learn, not just knowing how to write a rails app in one day and knowing how to debug a deadlock with gdb etc.

lsiebert 14y ago

So sexism, like any form of discrimination, doesn't just come in shocking bright red, "hey honey, why don't we go into the copy room for some hubba hubba". Rape can be a sexist act of violence, that's an extreme. Just because that extreme exists doesn't mean that less obvious forms of sexism and discrimination aren't ugly and evil. A really pernicious dirty disgusting thing about sexism (and racism) is that it can be subtle, and hidden, and still hurt people. Pay rates, job discrimination, advancement are examples. Pressure to conform to a feminine ideal or be see as "bitchy" or overly aggressive. So yeah, that's one bad thing. There are plenty of bad things. And sexism is bad for your business. Because discrimination doesn't just mean that some people are privileged over others. It means viewpoints, ideas, projects etc. from people who are women are not given the attention they deserve not because they are lacking, but because their source lacks testes. Discrimination doesn't just hurt women, it hurts everybody. You advance a guy over a more deserving woman... you are hurting your business. sexism is suboptimal. It doesn't even have to be that obvious. You make a person feel unhappy or uncomfortable at work and the work their team is doing will suffer, if only because of the communication problems that arise. Even if you aren't sexist (and it's hard to be a hundred percept free from stuff like that) sexism still informs the industry. The things you do that contribute to you being a programmer are often informed by gender roles and expectations. Math class for example. Anyway, I recently came up with a test for sexism. It's a test I fail, but it makes me think. Ask yourself, is it better for something, a hobby, a sport, whatever to be manly or womanly?

desireco42 14y ago

I would say that sexism in IT is not the major issue, there will always be places where there might be some, but I frankly never encountered those and women were treated well in all the places. Point that @mdkess makes about when female dev is bad it kind of is more visible and projects more to others is also good. I worked with some exceptional girls that code like best of us. However some other roles in IT might be better for women to start, like BA and QA and project management where frankly they excel. What IT or tech industry could use more is professionalism which would also help with work/life balance. I think that would bring up pay which I consider low, even though it is better then other fields. It would benefit from more women entering the field, but how to attract them is tough problem to solve.

panda_person 14y ago
"However some other roles in IT might be better for women to start, like BA and QA and project management where frankly they excel." Yeah, that's not itself sexist or condescending or anything...
- trhtrsh 14y ago
  GP was bizarrely tone-deaf in his comment, but BA, QA, PM are a could vantage point form which to attack gender inequality. They are jobs expect less technical prowess, and thus leave open an opportunity for a woman to show crossover talent (a BA knows how to write SQL? Wow!) and chisel away stereotypes. Now, it's a ridiculous rigamarole to have to go through, but it may be strategically effective in wearing down barriers.

stcredzero 14y ago

> The point of this is simply to show that, unlike what the article will have you believe, it is entirely possible to be a woman in the tech industry, like your job, get on well with your colleagues (even when most of them are, shock horror, men), and be treated in a totally fair way. I don't think any of that is contrary to the original article. I'm not sure that implying it is is entirely honest.

jgw 14y ago

I'm quite curious about how sexism affects the broader tech industry as a whole, as it seems to not affect my niche area much at all. I work in ASIC design, and we have probably even fewer women than software development. In general, I have never had the impression that sexism is much of a problem in our narrow little field. But since I'm male, I thought that perhaps I was blind to the problem. So I asked a female colleague, and she said she had never experienced any sexism on the job, period. Now, we're a small company, and I like to think we're a pretty progressive, decent bunch, so no surprises that she's never seen it internally. But we're also a professional services company, so we work with many clients, big and small, and we don't control their hiring process. But no - she's never experienced any sort of sexual discrimination at work with clients, either. I've not been able to come up with a plausible explanation of why the problem does not seem to affect us in the same way that it might in a different sub-field.

sndr 14y ago

Whoever asks questions or needs an opinnion(woman or man) must understand that first: before you begin to do so, you took a responsibility to accept what ever is being said, because you don't know the other end whos anwsering. let me ......... 1nce more.... !!!!!you don't know!!!!! there are too many variables Woman or men, what ever.... there are always 2 sides of the story sexism = vicious circle

collegeappz 14y ago

10/2 article on dearth of women in the tech industry. It mentions a key point, in its first paragraph copied below. I agree (and I'm a woman). It’s an important question: why are there so few women working in the IT and telecoms sector? It might be one of the rare times that The Guardian has actually asked an interesting question in fact. The answer is, I’m afraid, that on average men and women are different.

mamoswined 14y ago
I think it is interesting, but what really fascinates me is that I'm one of the only America women in my office and the only one who doesn't come from an Asian immigrant family. When I talk to my American female friends, most of them seem to think IT and computing in general is boring and dull. They wanted interesting careers and didn't think our sector fit the bill. The immigrant/first gen women in my office have a totally different attitude. They were encouraged by their family to pursue the career with the most stable potential, not the most interesting one.
- collegeappz 14y ago
  Funny. Being a newer-bie into the tech world, this arena has so much more to offer than just straight coding, which I think is like learning a language - as intelligent as learning French, Spanish, or any other. And more crafting the code to produce an awesome product - front end or back end is pretty thrilling. Especially for people who like instant gratification, which includes lawyers, teachers, and others in non-boring and dull communities. But alas, the only way attract more females (and of the box ones, too) is to have those in the world. Like attracts like - a universal axiom.
  - mamoswined 14y ago
    Yeah, I like it to. I wish I could convince other ladies otherwise. Plus, it's just a job, and it's a good job that allows me to have good job security. I think their jobs are boring. Sure, they are working in "cool" fields, but a lot of them are essentially doing secretary work.

rootedbox 14y ago

What he wrote was a primer.. describing the basics of what sexism is.. in fact in his terminology portion he pretty much breaks down what any gender equality book would break down, and he does so in a very concise manor. Also you MUST address rape culture when addressing sexism. Being dismissive of it is what leads to sexism. Reminds me of that kixeye manager "Let me tell you, it's ok to make jokes about slavery because that's over."

zachinglis 14y ago
Rape and sexism are not the same thing. Rape is genderless. Despite the fact that rape happens more to women, it happens to both genders. Secondly, just because someone is sexist it doesn't correlate to whether they're rapists or not. Sexism is about ignorance, rape is about many things often anger or control. If you mention rape any time someone says "I get paid less because I'm a girl", it sensationalizes it. It's like mentioning slavery, every time someone says "I'm only paid minimum wage"
- rootedbox 14y ago
  So blacks don't get paid less, get higher interest rates, and jailed more frequently; because of slavery? All class systems invoke a behaviors which is the complete opposite of Meritocracy; They are sensational from one viewpoint but are still prevalent in the class system. If you do not openly address those then you are in fact being passive in allowing the system to continue. Just because you treat women with dignity, and you have friends of multiple races.. Simply means you are not bigoted. You still could be a racist, and sexist. These are some things Faruk Ateş is bringing up in his primer, but is being lost by those who in general are privileged.
  - zachinglis 14y ago
    He's bringing up valid points surrounded by the word rape. It's almost a Godwin's Law. He's presenting the most extreme example again and again in a post that otherwise has some validity. Of course I disagree with rape. It's a very personal matter close to my heart for many reasons. But it is an extreme outcome of sexism, it is not the problem because of sexism nor is it the reason sexism happens.

deleted 14y ago

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konstruktor 14y ago

I would lever call a woman I interact with in a professional context a girl. That's so Mad Men. Am I the only one who considers this headline inappropriate for a posting about gender issues at work?

zachinglis 14y ago
I'm confused. She's not allowed to call herself a girl?
- trhtrsh 14y ago
  She can, you can't. Similar to the use of "nigga" or "[black] boy" It's a (short-term) tactical subversion move to reduce the power imbalance in cases of extreme sexism, but as a long-term strategy it is incapable of reaching equality.
  - zachinglis 14y ago
    Did I call her a girl? And as far as she's concerned, I'm allowed to call her anything I like (within reason.) Granted, that doesn't mean I should.
babblefrog 14y ago
I think some of that is generational. The women I work with who are my generation (I'm in my 50s) find that offensive, whereas the ones from the generation younger don't see anything wrong with it. I think the language is changing, where the previous generation would say men and girls, and my generation would say men and women, the next generation seems to be moving toward girls and boys.

rada 14y ago

The original "Primer On Sexism" : 8 points and dead, 0 comments The Rebuttal: 150 points and rising, 140+ comments If that in and of itself doesn't say volumes about the sexist attitudes of the majority of HN readers - and as such, the tech industry as a whole - I don't know what does. Surely a long, thoughtful article, with tons of context in the form of links and research, written by the creator of Modernizr and a former Appler beats a shouty "enraged me so much" rebuttal by a designer at a minor UK web agency for 7 months and prior to that, a movie usher for 2 years? People on HN are fond of saying things like, "I couldn't care less whether someone has a vagina or a penis, as long as they write great software". So how come Laura The Troll is getting so much attention for "telling it like it is", just because she is an "actual girl"? I am an "actual girl" too and I am seriously disappointed. We were offered a 5-star meal but we pounced on a 99-cent gas station burger because it had a picture of a ripe tomato on it, so hey, it must be healthy. And Laura, if you are reading this, a small bit of advice for you. Next time an article "enrages" you, re-read it and I guarantee you will see that it doesn't say what you think it does.

Aloisius 14y ago
Agreed. People seem to be incredibly invested in believing that intelligent people could ever be sexist. When I've called out people over the years for being sexist or racist, often they don't even realize immediately they'd said something offensive because it usually is subtle rather than overt - off-color jokes, sexualized images or inappropriate topics.
- illuminate 14y ago
  It reminds me of the whole Skepchick versus Dawkins & the "MRAs" drama that happened months back.
zachinglis 14y ago
I'm really disappointed you decided to use phrases like "Laura The Troll." It's funny. Those who've disagreed with Laura have come down to name calling and such. Faruk's a good guy. But because he worked for Apple means nothing. Absolutely squat. If you judge people's worth on who they've worked for, then that's worrying. It's not who you've worked for - it's what you've done (Modernizr was a good link in this.) I know many Googler's, Appler's who spend a lot of time writing minor code for example. But how does working for Apple and writing Modenizr qualify him to speak about sexism? That's got nothing to do with the topic at hand. Laura's not the only person who's expressed this view. Many people in the comemnts have agreed (and disagreed) I think it doesn't say volumes about the sexist attitudes. It says volumes that people agree with her more. I'm sorry it doesn't fit in your belief box, but that doesn't make it trolling, nor does it make it wrong.

peterwwillis 14y ago

<Insert experience of a single person and accept them as gospel for an entire industry> Also pretty ironic that the author uses sweeping generalizations to dismiss the cited article's sweeping generalizations. Is this what we've regressed to? Meta-useless articles of people ranting about issues without any proactive work towards understanding, or god forbid, solutions? When are people going to stop ranting about the problem and start fixing it? clicks next story

Tipzntrix 14y ago

I actually have to wonder if "owned" ever had this much of an effect on black people as "raped" did on women when it came about in gaming slang.

trhtrsh 14y ago
"owned" comes from a different meaning originally (owning a machine, and then identifying the machine with its user), whereas as the "rape" etymology is direct, but then convergent evolution leads us to insults like "I owned you like Thomas Jefferson owned slaves".

eavc 14y ago

"Isn’t social research by its nature normally based on anecdotal evidence?" No. That's the very antithesis of what social research is, by its nature.

zachinglis 14y ago
If you read his Tweets, when Laura tried to contact him on Twitter before. Anything she said was "wrong" because of evidence suggests otherwise. She literally couldn't give her personal views, because evidence denies it. But let's be fair, you can make research say whatever you want. Especially social research. It's a very valid thing, but it should not be taken as gospel.

bobsy 14y ago

Isn't sexism like anything else? There are extreme cases, quite often though just speaking up resolves it. I have a stutter and I have been in many jobs where I have been the butt of some jokes. I have been overlooked or talked over. People have played 'guess the word' when i get stuck... i could go on. I find in the vast majority of cases a quiet word, a quick bit of education or just straight up shutting someone down makes such problems perminantly go away. There is sexism in the tech industry, i am sure there is some racism and whatever else as well. There will always be people who intentionally or not say something that offends. Your work place experience will depend on how you react to that. My experience of the tech industry has shown that it handles complaints well and deals with issues that arise in a positive way. I think this is what people should focus on. I saw a documentary about a fish market where women should be good wives at home. The few women who worked there were subject to daily sexist remarks. They had a choice. Ignore it or quit... There are far worse places to work than in technology

pwf 14y ago

> I’ve found men to be more laid back, friendlier, and easier to talk to than women. I had to stop reading there. Is this article supposed to be an example of what real sexism looks like?

army 14y ago

I don't think the original article was very good, and I'm glad Laura has had positive experiences (plenty of us guys do try to make sure its a welcoming environment for everyone). There are certainly plenty of well-meaning people out there who have subconscious biases (and plenty of assholes too) so I think at least its good that the topic is brought up occasionally.

godisdad 14y ago

This reminds me of the so-called Tiger Mother. Someone who reinforces the prevailing beliefs but claims credibility due to their status as a member of the group in situ. I suspect the author is actually a male graduate student in the UK.