19 ms·

Power problem: solved Natural Gas supply problem: worsened Carbon in the atmosphere problem: worsened

by goda90 10mo ago

einrealist 10mo ago
The word 'pollution' appears exactly one time in this entire thing, the word 'community' or 'communities' never.
- quikoa 10mo ago
  This website appears to be very AI heavy in articles. I think it's fair to say these articles are biased because of that.
- wyldfire 10mo ago
  The only way to solve problems like this IMO is to price in the externalities. Tax fossil fuels for the damage they do, in order to reveal their true cost. Then they will never look like the most affordable option, because they're not.
  - einrealist 10mo ago
    True. The same is true for nuclear energy. I never heard of a nuclear power plant that did not receive substantial subsidies throughout lifetime. Not to forget the nuclear fuel and the efforts required to create it and later to store it.
  - eszed 10mo ago
    A carbon tax, you say? 9 out of 10 economists agree, and dozens of voters. Dozens! [That read as snark, didn't it? Sorry. I absolutely, completely, 100% agree with everything you say.]
protimewaster 10mo ago
Yeah, that headline made me think "Oh good, there's some solution on the horizon that won't require absurd amounts of electricity." Not so.
corimaith 10mo ago
Coincidentally the USA is more than self sufficient in natural gas and is a net exporter. Drill baby drill!
- twism 10mo ago
  supply is finite
imglorp 10mo ago
And the air quality around these plants is poor, leading to health problems for the neighbors. This short term, destructive, thinking should be criminalized. I think it's time to discuss changing the incentives around ai deployment, specifically paying into a ubi fund whenever human jobs are replaced by ai. Musk himself raised the idea. https://www.indexbox.io/blog/tech-leaders-push-for-universal-basic-income-amid-ai-job-displacement/ https://www.indexbox.io/blog/tech-leaders-push-for-universal...
- lukan 10mo ago
  I assumed gas plants are pretty good in terms of air quality? Coal plants are bad.
  - condensedcrab 10mo ago
    Gas plants are not bad… but imagine 400 MW of gas plants in a concentrated area. You’ll always have NOx and SOx by products whenever you’re burning gas.
  - HPsquared 10mo ago
    It depends on if they treat the exhaust to remove nitrogen oxides. Not sure what the standard is for this kind of plant though.
  - imglorp 10mo ago
    In the case of Grok's turbines, no emissions controls means sick people. Plus all the CO2 pushing climate collapse faster which hurts every coming generation. https://www.politico.com/news/2025/05/06/elon-musk-xai-memphis-gas-turbines-air-pollution-permits-00317582 https://www.politico.com/news/2025/05/06/elon-musk-xai-memph...
  - macNchz 10mo ago
    Gas is certainly less of a problem than coal, but they still produce plenty of bad stuff: nitrogen oxides and bad VOCs like formaldehyde that are well studied to increase risk of asthma and some types of cancer. I certainly wouldn’t want to live close to one.
saghm 10mo ago
Yeah I guess I'm not the target audience for this because I assumed that "the power problem" was "massive increase in electricity costs for people despite virtually unchanged usage on their part", not "AI companies have to wait too long to be able to start using even more power than they already are": > Nicole Pastore, who has lived in her large stone home near Baltimore’s Johns Hopkins University campus for 18 years, said her utility bills over the past year jumped by 50%. “You look at that and think, ‘Oh my god,’” she said. She has now become the kind of mom who walks around her home turning off lights and unplugging her daughter’s cellphone chargers. > And because Pastore is a judge who rules on rental disputes in Baltimore City District Court, she regularly sees poor people struggling with their own power bills. “It’s utilities versus rent,” she said. “They want to stay in their home, but they also want to keep their lights on.” https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2025-ai-data-centers-electricity-prices/ https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2025-ai-data-centers-elec...
- jstummbillig 10mo ago
  I understand the instinct but if people seriously think that they are solving any problem by unplugging cell phone chargers, they are simply bad at math. Human time is easily worth more than that, even when working at minimum wage. That said, it obviously sucks that utility prices are rising for people who can not effortlessly cover that (not to speak of the local pollution, if that's an issue). Maybe some special tax to offset that cost to society towards hyper scalers would be a reasonable way to soften the blow, but I have not done the math.
  - esseph 10mo ago
    They are not necessarily bad at math, but they probably aren't electricians or EEs or have ever needed or been asked to calculate how much power a cell phone charger uses. Mom/Dad used to unplug things and turn lights off, so they do too.
    - saghm 10mo ago
      I think it's also just how people start acting in situations where they can't control anything that would make a difference. In the presence of an issue you can't solve, if you can do something, even if it's small and won't really help, sometimes it feels good to at least do that. Being able to address the anxiety even a little a bit still might be worthwhile.
Aurornis 10mo ago
The natural gas turbines used are relatively efficient as far as engines go. Having them on-site makes transmission losses basically negligible. Nothing short of full solar connected to batteries produced without any difficult to mine elements will make some people happy, but as far as pollution and fuel consumption data centers aren’t really a global concern at the same level as things like transportation.
- miltonlost 10mo ago
  > as far as pollution and fuel consumption data centers aren’t really a global concern at the same level as things like transportation. Same level doesn't remove the concern for this unnecessary pollution. Stop changing the subject from the environmental problems that AI usage can have by their increased power consumption. Natural gas engines are efficient! Ok! But what about the pollution they produce to nearby neighborhoods? What about the health repercussions? Do human lives not matter? https://www.politico.com/news/2025/05/06/elon-musk-xai-memphis-gas-turbines-air-pollution-permits-00317582 https://www.politico.com/news/2025/05/06/elon-musk-xai-memph...
- estearum 10mo ago
  I'm honestly curious whether you yourself are even aware of the disingenuousness of this argument. It's fairly impressive in its density! 1. Nobody complained about the efficiency of natural gas turbines. You can efficiently do a lot of useless stuff with deep negative externalities, and the fact it's efficient is not all that helpful. 2. Saying "the extreme far end would not be satisfied even by much better solutions" is not an excuse not to pursue better solutions! 3. There are many dimensions of this that people care about beyond the "global concern" level regarding "pollution and fuel consumption." 4. There are many problems that are significant and worth thinking about even if they are not the largest singular problems that could be included by some arbitrarily defined criteria
  - Aurornis 10mo ago
    > I'm honestly curious whether you yourself are even aware of the disingenuousness of this argument. Unnecessarily condescending and smug, but I’ll try to respond. That said, you’re putting forth your own disingenuous assumptions and misconceptions. The natural gas turbines are an intermediate solution to get up and running due to the extremely long and arduous process of getting connected to the grid. Arguing pedantry about the word efficiency isn’t helpful either. The data centers are being built, sorry to anyone who gets triggered by that. The gas turbines are an efficient way to power them while waiting for grid interconnect and longterm renewables to come online. Disingenuous is acting like this is a permanent solution to the exclusion of others. The whole point is that it gets them started now with portable generation that is efficient.
torginus 10mo ago
And imagine all this poorly located, overpriced, haphazardly thrown together and polluting infrastructure will basically get flushed down the toilet once either the AI bubble pops, or they figure out a new way of doing AI that doesn't require terawatts of power.

Power problem: solved Natural Gas supply problem: worsened Carbon in the atmosphere problem: worsened

by goda90 10mo ago

Power problem: solved Natural Gas supply problem: worsened Carbon in the atmosphere problem: worsened

einrealist 10mo ago

The word 'pollution' appears exactly one time in this entire thing, the word 'community' or 'communities' never.

quikoa 10mo ago
This website appears to be very AI heavy in articles. I think it's fair to say these articles are biased because of that.
wyldfire 10mo ago
The only way to solve problems like this IMO is to price in the externalities. Tax fossil fuels for the damage they do, in order to reveal their true cost. Then they will never look like the most affordable option, because they're not.
- einrealist 10mo ago
  True. The same is true for nuclear energy. I never heard of a nuclear power plant that did not receive substantial subsidies throughout lifetime. Not to forget the nuclear fuel and the efforts required to create it and later to store it.
- eszed 10mo ago
  A carbon tax, you say? 9 out of 10 economists agree, and dozens of voters. Dozens! [That read as snark, didn't it? Sorry. I absolutely, completely, 100% agree with everything you say.]

protimewaster 10mo ago

Yeah, that headline made me think "Oh good, there's some solution on the horizon that won't require absurd amounts of electricity." Not so.

corimaith 10mo ago

Coincidentally the USA is more than self sufficient in natural gas and is a net exporter. Drill baby drill!

twism 10mo ago
supply is finite

imglorp 10mo ago

And the air quality around these plants is poor, leading to health problems for the neighbors. This short term, destructive, thinking should be criminalized. I think it's time to discuss changing the incentives around ai deployment, specifically paying into a ubi fund whenever human jobs are replaced by ai. Musk himself raised the idea. https://www.indexbox.io/blog/tech-leaders-push-for-universal-basic-income-amid-ai-job-displacement/ https://www.indexbox.io/blog/tech-leaders-push-for-universal...

lukan 10mo ago
I assumed gas plants are pretty good in terms of air quality? Coal plants are bad.
- condensedcrab 10mo ago
  Gas plants are not bad… but imagine 400 MW of gas plants in a concentrated area. You’ll always have NOx and SOx by products whenever you’re burning gas.
- HPsquared 10mo ago
  It depends on if they treat the exhaust to remove nitrogen oxides. Not sure what the standard is for this kind of plant though.
- imglorp 10mo ago
  In the case of Grok's turbines, no emissions controls means sick people. Plus all the CO2 pushing climate collapse faster which hurts every coming generation. https://www.politico.com/news/2025/05/06/elon-musk-xai-memphis-gas-turbines-air-pollution-permits-00317582 https://www.politico.com/news/2025/05/06/elon-musk-xai-memph...
- macNchz 10mo ago
  Gas is certainly less of a problem than coal, but they still produce plenty of bad stuff: nitrogen oxides and bad VOCs like formaldehyde that are well studied to increase risk of asthma and some types of cancer. I certainly wouldn’t want to live close to one.

saghm 10mo ago

Yeah I guess I'm not the target audience for this because I assumed that "the power problem" was "massive increase in electricity costs for people despite virtually unchanged usage on their part", not "AI companies have to wait too long to be able to start using even more power than they already are": > Nicole Pastore, who has lived in her large stone home near Baltimore’s Johns Hopkins University campus for 18 years, said her utility bills over the past year jumped by 50%. “You look at that and think, ‘Oh my god,’” she said. She has now become the kind of mom who walks around her home turning off lights and unplugging her daughter’s cellphone chargers. > And because Pastore is a judge who rules on rental disputes in Baltimore City District Court, she regularly sees poor people struggling with their own power bills. “It’s utilities versus rent,” she said. “They want to stay in their home, but they also want to keep their lights on.” https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2025-ai-data-centers-electricity-prices/ https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2025-ai-data-centers-elec...

jstummbillig 10mo ago
I understand the instinct but if people seriously think that they are solving any problem by unplugging cell phone chargers, they are simply bad at math. Human time is easily worth more than that, even when working at minimum wage. That said, it obviously sucks that utility prices are rising for people who can not effortlessly cover that (not to speak of the local pollution, if that's an issue). Maybe some special tax to offset that cost to society towards hyper scalers would be a reasonable way to soften the blow, but I have not done the math.
- esseph 10mo ago
  They are not necessarily bad at math, but they probably aren't electricians or EEs or have ever needed or been asked to calculate how much power a cell phone charger uses. Mom/Dad used to unplug things and turn lights off, so they do too.
  - saghm 10mo ago
    I think it's also just how people start acting in situations where they can't control anything that would make a difference. In the presence of an issue you can't solve, if you can do something, even if it's small and won't really help, sometimes it feels good to at least do that. Being able to address the anxiety even a little a bit still might be worthwhile.

Aurornis 10mo ago

The natural gas turbines used are relatively efficient as far as engines go. Having them on-site makes transmission losses basically negligible. Nothing short of full solar connected to batteries produced without any difficult to mine elements will make some people happy, but as far as pollution and fuel consumption data centers aren’t really a global concern at the same level as things like transportation.

miltonlost 10mo ago
> as far as pollution and fuel consumption data centers aren’t really a global concern at the same level as things like transportation. Same level doesn't remove the concern for this unnecessary pollution. Stop changing the subject from the environmental problems that AI usage can have by their increased power consumption. Natural gas engines are efficient! Ok! But what about the pollution they produce to nearby neighborhoods? What about the health repercussions? Do human lives not matter? https://www.politico.com/news/2025/05/06/elon-musk-xai-memphis-gas-turbines-air-pollution-permits-00317582 https://www.politico.com/news/2025/05/06/elon-musk-xai-memph...
estearum 10mo ago
I'm honestly curious whether you yourself are even aware of the disingenuousness of this argument. It's fairly impressive in its density! 1. Nobody complained about the efficiency of natural gas turbines. You can efficiently do a lot of useless stuff with deep negative externalities, and the fact it's efficient is not all that helpful. 2. Saying "the extreme far end would not be satisfied even by much better solutions" is not an excuse not to pursue better solutions! 3. There are many dimensions of this that people care about beyond the "global concern" level regarding "pollution and fuel consumption." 4. There are many problems that are significant and worth thinking about even if they are not the largest singular problems that could be included by some arbitrarily defined criteria
- Aurornis 10mo ago
  > I'm honestly curious whether you yourself are even aware of the disingenuousness of this argument. Unnecessarily condescending and smug, but I’ll try to respond. That said, you’re putting forth your own disingenuous assumptions and misconceptions. The natural gas turbines are an intermediate solution to get up and running due to the extremely long and arduous process of getting connected to the grid. Arguing pedantry about the word efficiency isn’t helpful either. The data centers are being built, sorry to anyone who gets triggered by that. The gas turbines are an efficient way to power them while waiting for grid interconnect and longterm renewables to come online. Disingenuous is acting like this is a permanent solution to the exclusion of others. The whole point is that it gets them started now with portable generation that is efficient.

torginus 10mo ago

And imagine all this poorly located, overpriced, haphazardly thrown together and polluting infrastructure will basically get flushed down the toilet once either the AI bubble pops, or they figure out a new way of doing AI that doesn't require terawatts of power.