4 ms·

Not an expert, but I have two thoughts: 1. They don't have to wait until another miner finds a block, they can just wait "for some time" and then release their

by palata 10mo ago

Not an expert, but I have two thoughts: 1. They don't have to wait until another miner finds a block, they can just wait "for some time" and then release their block. All that time gives them the edge for the next block. 2. My understanding is that if two different blocks are found concurrently for the same head, then the network waits for the next block to select which "new head" is accepted. I.e. when there are competing chains, the longer chain wins. So I could imagine that a strategy could be to wait until some other miner announces their block and release yours precisely at that time, hence creating two competing chains. But you presumably have an edge because you have already been mining for a while on top of your block.

copirate 10mo ago
There's no edge. Having spent time mining in the past doesn't increase your odds of finding a block in the future.
- adwn 10mo ago
  The idea is that you can start with the next head earlier than all the others, giving you an edge in being the first to find the next block.
  - copirate 10mo ago
    But what do they gain by doing that? What's the edge? Starting earlier doesn't give you any advantage.
    - palata 10mo ago
      > Starting earlier doesn't give you any advantage It's a race. Starting earlier obviously gives an advantage?!
      - copirate 10mo ago
        No it's not a race, it's a lottery. It would be like saying you've an edge if you start earlier at the roulette.
        palata 10mo ago
        I think you're confused. In a lottery, the more tickets you buy, the higher your chances to have the winning number. If we played with a roulette and said "the goal is to be the first to have a winning number at the roulette" and I could try 50 times before you started, obviously I would be more likely to win our game, wouldn't I?
        copirate 10mo ago
        > In a lottery, the more tickets you buy, the higher your chances to have the winning number. Yes, and it's exactly the same in bitcoin with the hashing power. Each hash is a ticket. > If we played with a roulette and said "the goal is to be the first to have a winning number at the roulette" and I can try 50 times before you start, obviously I am more likely to win our game, am I not? In bitcoin the goal is not to be the first. The goal is to find a winning hash that's on a chain that will not be abandoned. As soon as a new block is propagated you start mining on the new head. It doesn't change anything that you previously worked on another chain. The time spent on the previous chain is not wasted, unless finding a block wouldn't have got you the reward. There is a kind of a race if 2 blocks are found simultaneously. But that's not really what this discussion is about, and in this case the outcome depends mostly on network connectivity.
        palata 10mo ago
        It is precisely what this discussion is about. From the article: > The key idea behind this strategy, called Selfish Mining, is for a pool to keep its discovered blocks private, thereby intentionally forking the chain. The honest nodes continue to mine on the public chain, while the pool mines on its own private branch. If the pool discovers more blocks, it develops a longer lead on the public chain, and continues to keep these new blocks private. When the public branch approaches the pool's private branch in length, the selfish miners reveal blocks from their private chain to the public. > In bitcoin the goal is not to be the first. The goal is to find a winning hash that's on a chain that will not be abandoned. The goal is to be the first (or very close to the first), because it makes it much more likely that your chain will not be abandoned. If you wait 2 days before you reveal your block, obviously it will be abandoned...
    - sjducb 10mo ago
      There is an advantage because occasionally you find the second block while the first block is still secret, then you release the two blocks in quick succession. That’s the edge.
      - copirate 10mo ago
        What advantage does it provide vs not withholding? If you don't keep your first block secret and find a 2nd block, you get the same rewards. On the other hand, if someone finds a block while you're keeping yours secret, it's very likely you'll lose the reward of your block. So, you get a chance to discard the block of another miner, but you have to put your own block at risk of being discarded. Maybe there's a gain here, but it's not clear.

by palata 10mo ago

copirate 10mo ago

There's no edge. Having spent time mining in the past doesn't increase your odds of finding a block in the future.

adwn 10mo ago
The idea is that you can start with the next head earlier than all the others, giving you an edge in being the first to find the next block.
- copirate 10mo ago
  But what do they gain by doing that? What's the edge? Starting earlier doesn't give you any advantage.
  - palata 10mo ago
    > Starting earlier doesn't give you any advantage It's a race. Starting earlier obviously gives an advantage?!
    - copirate 10mo ago
      No it's not a race, it's a lottery. It would be like saying you've an edge if you start earlier at the roulette.
      - palata 10mo ago
        I think you're confused. In a lottery, the more tickets you buy, the higher your chances to have the winning number. If we played with a roulette and said "the goal is to be the first to have a winning number at the roulette" and I could try 50 times before you started, obviously I would be more likely to win our game, wouldn't I?
        copirate 10mo ago
        > In a lottery, the more tickets you buy, the higher your chances to have the winning number. Yes, and it's exactly the same in bitcoin with the hashing power. Each hash is a ticket. > If we played with a roulette and said "the goal is to be the first to have a winning number at the roulette" and I can try 50 times before you start, obviously I am more likely to win our game, am I not? In bitcoin the goal is not to be the first. The goal is to find a winning hash that's on a chain that will not be abandoned. As soon as a new block is propagated you start mining on the new head. It doesn't change anything that you previously worked on another chain. The time spent on the previous chain is not wasted, unless finding a block wouldn't have got you the reward. There is a kind of a race if 2 blocks are found simultaneously. But that's not really what this discussion is about, and in this case the outcome depends mostly on network connectivity.
        palata 10mo ago
        It is precisely what this discussion is about. From the article: > The key idea behind this strategy, called Selfish Mining, is for a pool to keep its discovered blocks private, thereby intentionally forking the chain. The honest nodes continue to mine on the public chain, while the pool mines on its own private branch. If the pool discovers more blocks, it develops a longer lead on the public chain, and continues to keep these new blocks private. When the public branch approaches the pool's private branch in length, the selfish miners reveal blocks from their private chain to the public. > In bitcoin the goal is not to be the first. The goal is to find a winning hash that's on a chain that will not be abandoned. The goal is to be the first (or very close to the first), because it makes it much more likely that your chain will not be abandoned. If you wait 2 days before you reveal your block, obviously it will be abandoned...
  - sjducb 10mo ago
    There is an advantage because occasionally you find the second block while the first block is still secret, then you release the two blocks in quick succession. That’s the edge.
    - copirate 10mo ago
      What advantage does it provide vs not withholding? If you don't keep your first block secret and find a 2nd block, you get the same rewards. On the other hand, if someone finds a block while you're keeping yours secret, it's very likely you'll lose the reward of your block. So, you get a chance to discard the block of another miner, but you have to put your own block at risk of being discarded. Maybe there's a gain here, but it's not clear.