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The more wild US gets with its sanction powers the more it draws other countries to move usa away from the center of the financial system. Nobody cares when us

by bawolff 10mo ago

The more wild US gets with its sanction powers the more it draws other countries to move usa away from the center of the financial system. Nobody cares when usa was sanctioning random Iranians or Russians comitting human rights abuses, but the ICC is relatively popular in europe and the optics of this makes america look like gangsters. Obviously nothing is going to happen in the short term, but i wonder how it will errode american soft power in the long term if they keep this sort of thing up.

BLKNSLVR 10mo ago
The US has any soft power left? I think Trump has successfully destroyed all of that and replaced it with (rhetoric about) threats of hard power. The Trump administration is the equivalent of a lazy/absent parent. The kids have no respect for them whatsoever, but they're sick with them for time being and aware that belt hurts when it's deployed.
- jeltz 10mo ago
  It still has quite a bit. It took decades to build it up, and Trump has not yet managed to destroy all of it in one year, but maybe four years ...
  - mdhb 10mo ago
    No I think it’s properly ruined at this point. There is no possible way any of their formal allies will ever be able to trust them again without a LOT of people going to jail and such fundamental changes to how power works in the country that I don’t think they are even remotely capable of pulling off.
    - xvector 10mo ago
      I am deeply skeptical of this statement. Soft power is great but actual power comes from the ability to project your military and economy. As such, the US's soft power will remain until the EU is willing to compromise on its welfare state to build an actual functioning defense industry and an economy that prioritizes innovation over taxes/regulation. But I am skeptical the EU/UK will ever reach such a compromise (see: mass riots in France over raising the retirement age, despite it being objectively and clearly necessary; the UK's reluctance to release the triple lock pension despite it impoverishing the country, etc.)
      - mdhb 10mo ago
        I take it you don’t follow the European defence industry news but the wheels are very much turning already. They are planning an independent future and are hyper aware that it is now official US nation strategy priority to try and destroy the European Union as a political body and make it into a vassal state
        xvector 10mo ago
        I do follow EU defense news and I have seen that things are heating up. But I'll believe it when I see it. This will require a significant shift of public funding allocation away from welfare, and the public will need to approve it. Will they? I doubt it.
  - tdeck 10mo ago
    Also, when you're rich you get a certain amount of "soft power" for free. People look up to rich people and rich countries. Just pick your favorite rich guy who has demonstrated himself to be an execrable human being for decades, and still has a big pool of admirers.
heresie-dabord 10mo ago
> this makes america look like gangsters It is understandable that you would have this impression, given that the US leader has total legal immunity, directly controls the judiciary, Congress, tariffs and formerly independent financial agencies, openly threatens journalists and news media companies, appoints untalented lackies and openly enriches himself and his family and associates, openly uses federal legal entities to pursue opponents, deploys the military within the country against its own citizens, and has made federal arrest without warrant a common daily event. It you live in a country where your government does not exhibit such characteristics, it's easy to mistake the above as an indication of something suspiciously unlike democracy. From TFA: "In concrete terms, the rule of law is equality for all individuals, globally, before justice." The rule of law has now become — for those who enjoy American expressions — a type of fan fiction.
pixelpoet 10mo ago
They literally are gangsters; look at what they're doing in Venezuela, literally stealing and selling oil tankers, extrajudicial killings and all the rest of it. Only 33% of the population opposed it the second time (when it was already clear what their Dear Leader is like), so it's very difficult to escape the conclusion that they're gangsters and fine with that. Even here on HN they're blithely saying "might makes right"...
- PostOnce 10mo ago
  "Might makes right" is an observation, not a profession of moral philosophy... In other words, the mighty will generally get their way, no matter how wrong that way is. As far as the tankers go, they're not transporting Toys for Tots, they're transporting Oil for Oligarchs, so I'm not sure how much sympathy I'm going to be able to muster on that one, even though the lawlessness leaves a bitter taste.
  - pixelpoet 10mo ago
    How do you feel now, 2 days later? Still no sympathy I'm sure.
    - PostOnce 10mo ago
      Not everything is absolutely black and white, but here is my best effort to convey my take: Two wrongs don't make a right, nor does the second wrongdoer make me more sympathetic to the first. Frankly, none of the oil wealth in Venezuela has been doing anything to improve the life of the average Venezuelan, and that is a terrible state of affairs. It has only served to drown the corrupt rich in their own champagne. Would Maduro be where he is if he were not a dictator robbing the poor of his own country of the benefit of their own natural resources? I have great sympathy for the nation of Venezuela and its people, but also for the rule of law -- both internationally, as this was surely an illegal action, but also the rule of law internally in Venezuela for the past long while. The ICC didn't start investigating Venezuela for nothing. The people of Venezuela deserve better. I have very little sympathy for the oligarchs, Maduro, any number of corrupt related subordinate officials and facilitators that led to the exodus of millions of Venezuelans and the precipitous decline inside Venezuela, in terms of everything from national finances to civil rights to economic opportunity for the average man. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court_investigation_in_Venezuela https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court_i... I am not at all sympathetic to anything the Trump administration is doing. I don't believe any of it makes much sense, not even from the perspective of greed or stupidity, but I don't need to go into all of that right now. That has no bearing on my lack of sympathy for the ex-Government of Venezuela.

by bawolff 10mo ago

BLKNSLVR 10mo ago

The US has any soft power left? I think Trump has successfully destroyed all of that and replaced it with (rhetoric about) threats of hard power. The Trump administration is the equivalent of a lazy/absent parent. The kids have no respect for them whatsoever, but they're sick with them for time being and aware that belt hurts when it's deployed.

jeltz 10mo ago
It still has quite a bit. It took decades to build it up, and Trump has not yet managed to destroy all of it in one year, but maybe four years ...
- mdhb 10mo ago
  No I think it’s properly ruined at this point. There is no possible way any of their formal allies will ever be able to trust them again without a LOT of people going to jail and such fundamental changes to how power works in the country that I don’t think they are even remotely capable of pulling off.
  - xvector 10mo ago
    I am deeply skeptical of this statement. Soft power is great but actual power comes from the ability to project your military and economy. As such, the US's soft power will remain until the EU is willing to compromise on its welfare state to build an actual functioning defense industry and an economy that prioritizes innovation over taxes/regulation. But I am skeptical the EU/UK will ever reach such a compromise (see: mass riots in France over raising the retirement age, despite it being objectively and clearly necessary; the UK's reluctance to release the triple lock pension despite it impoverishing the country, etc.)
    - mdhb 10mo ago
      I take it you don’t follow the European defence industry news but the wheels are very much turning already. They are planning an independent future and are hyper aware that it is now official US nation strategy priority to try and destroy the European Union as a political body and make it into a vassal state
      - xvector 10mo ago
        I do follow EU defense news and I have seen that things are heating up. But I'll believe it when I see it. This will require a significant shift of public funding allocation away from welfare, and the public will need to approve it. Will they? I doubt it.
- tdeck 10mo ago
  Also, when you're rich you get a certain amount of "soft power" for free. People look up to rich people and rich countries. Just pick your favorite rich guy who has demonstrated himself to be an execrable human being for decades, and still has a big pool of admirers.

heresie-dabord 10mo ago

> this makes america look like gangsters It is understandable that you would have this impression, given that the US leader has total legal immunity, directly controls the judiciary, Congress, tariffs and formerly independent financial agencies, openly threatens journalists and news media companies, appoints untalented lackies and openly enriches himself and his family and associates, openly uses federal legal entities to pursue opponents, deploys the military within the country against its own citizens, and has made federal arrest without warrant a common daily event. It you live in a country where your government does not exhibit such characteristics, it's easy to mistake the above as an indication of something suspiciously unlike democracy. From TFA: "In concrete terms, the rule of law is equality for all individuals, globally, before justice." The rule of law has now become — for those who enjoy American expressions — a type of fan fiction.

pixelpoet 10mo ago

They literally are gangsters; look at what they're doing in Venezuela, literally stealing and selling oil tankers, extrajudicial killings and all the rest of it. Only 33% of the population opposed it the second time (when it was already clear what their Dear Leader is like), so it's very difficult to escape the conclusion that they're gangsters and fine with that. Even here on HN they're blithely saying "might makes right"...

PostOnce 10mo ago
"Might makes right" is an observation, not a profession of moral philosophy... In other words, the mighty will generally get their way, no matter how wrong that way is. As far as the tankers go, they're not transporting Toys for Tots, they're transporting Oil for Oligarchs, so I'm not sure how much sympathy I'm going to be able to muster on that one, even though the lawlessness leaves a bitter taste.
- pixelpoet 10mo ago
  How do you feel now, 2 days later? Still no sympathy I'm sure.
  - PostOnce 10mo ago
    Not everything is absolutely black and white, but here is my best effort to convey my take: Two wrongs don't make a right, nor does the second wrongdoer make me more sympathetic to the first. Frankly, none of the oil wealth in Venezuela has been doing anything to improve the life of the average Venezuelan, and that is a terrible state of affairs. It has only served to drown the corrupt rich in their own champagne. Would Maduro be where he is if he were not a dictator robbing the poor of his own country of the benefit of their own natural resources? I have great sympathy for the nation of Venezuela and its people, but also for the rule of law -- both internationally, as this was surely an illegal action, but also the rule of law internally in Venezuela for the past long while. The ICC didn't start investigating Venezuela for nothing. The people of Venezuela deserve better. I have very little sympathy for the oligarchs, Maduro, any number of corrupt related subordinate officials and facilitators that led to the exodus of millions of Venezuelans and the precipitous decline inside Venezuela, in terms of everything from national finances to civil rights to economic opportunity for the average man. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court_investigation_in_Venezuela https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court_i... I am not at all sympathetic to anything the Trump administration is doing. I don't believe any of it makes much sense, not even from the perspective of greed or stupidity, but I don't need to go into all of that right now. That has no bearing on my lack of sympathy for the ex-Government of Venezuela.