4 ms·

Not to sound cynical, but what's to stop these officials from picking non-multinational regional bank?

jeroenhd 10mo ago
This isn't just about being a customer to a multinational bank: this also includes European banks who do business with American banks. For instance, most credit/debit cards in Europe are based on either Mastercard or Visa. All banks I know of will allow you to pay in dollars through online banking. I don't think there are any European banks that don't communicate with American payment providers in some way by default. It's possible that there are some that trust their feature gates enough to take on these sanctioned people (like government-run banks for those who can't get a normal bank account, i.e. because of a history of fraud and crime), but I don't think these banks will advertise that ability. Perhaps if she'd take an Iranian, North Korean, or Russian bank account, she might be able to do America-free banking, but that's not very practical outside of Iran, North Korea, or Russia at the moment.
pdpi 10mo ago
I'm an EU citizen and UK resident. If I were to become one of those officials, my banking situation would become much more complex. One of the defining characteristics of the EU (not that the UK ever cared, even before leaving) is Freedom of Movement, and this is a credible threat to that freedom.
- mytailorisrich 10mo ago
  When in the EU the UK was actually one of the countries (if not the country) that made freedom of movement the easiest because, indeed, they did not care. You could move there with zero involvement or knowledge from the authorities.
  - pdpi 10mo ago
    Yeah, moving here involved basically buying a plane ticket, and, after I got here, booking an appointment to get a National Insurance number (basically equivalent to an American Social Security number). Never occurred to me that moving to any other EU country might be harder than that.
    - embedding-shape 10mo ago
      > Never occurred to me that moving to any other EU country might be harder than that. I don't think it is? I moved to Spain from other EU country the same way, basically bought the cheapest one-way plane ticket I could find, spent ~1 month here before deciding I wanted to live here, then got myself the local residence card one morning and that's about it. Everything else just worked by using my passport in the meantime.
      - mytailorisrich 10mo ago
        > Then got myself the local residence card one morning Well, exactly. Some countries require/required registration and residence card. That did not exist in the UK when it was in the EU, you just showed your passport/ID card when you needed to prove your right to be there (basically once in a blue Moon). Even now EU residents don't have any physical documents. The National Insurance number @pdpi mentioned is unrelated as everyone has one once they work and an appointment is not always required to get one, and you can actually start working before you get one. If you work as an employee there is also usually nothing to do regarding tax.
      - wolvoleo 10mo ago
        It depends on the country. And Spain is not as simple as you say. Even getting the NIE is very difficult due to the foreign police not making enough appointments available. And expensive immigration agencies hoarding those appointments to make money. Then you need a social security number exist is different than the NIE, you need empradonamiento, you need to register with the health service and you need to set up your tax if you're going to work here (or if you live there more than 180 days of the year)
      - cinntaile 10mo ago
        It's not just registering. This assumes you had a job contract lined up or sufficient funds to support yourself.
        embedding-shape 10mo ago
wazoox 10mo ago
You can't have a credit card which makes your life miserable in the modern world even if you can find a bank : Visa, Master Card, Amex are all American.
- ivell 10mo ago
  Financial sovereignty is one of the reasons India went with its own RuPay (https://www.rupay.co.in/credit-cards https://www.rupay.co.in/credit-cards) credit cards.
  - fpoling 10mo ago
    Russia after starting aggressive war against Ukraine quickly deployed own version of payment system. And it has been working much better than Visa/Madtercards with much more straightforward integration with online services and very intuitive apps. Russian people who moved from Russia as refugees or just to escape mobilization or prosecution have found banking system in EU/UK/US are rather unsmooth to put it mildly.
    - machomaster 10mo ago
      1. "Quickly deployed" is misleading. The work started after 2014 when the idea of closing Russia from the SWIFT system was first discussed. Europeans didn't do that at that time (and they were, that would have been hugely problematic for Russian banks), but made Russia initiate technical work to add in-country backend. In 2022 they finally had to turn it on. But the work was 8 years in the making. 2. When it comes to Mir (Visa/Mastercard) alternatives, it is not that wide-spread. 3. The awesomeness of Russian Fintech (and IT/tech in general) is a separate thing, that has everything to do with Russians' technological ingenuity, not the government/sanctions/patriotism/safety/risk-management/sovereignty/independence.
- mgaunard 10mo ago
  Europe used to have its own system, but it merged with Mastercard in 2002. These days however the focus has moved to digital payments, and Europe is now backing Wero, which they aim to start rolling out properly in 2026.
hkt 10mo ago
Visa and MasterCard, for a start: if a bank issues any kind of commonly accepted debit card to someone who is sanctioned then what is at stake is that bank's ability to continue issuing those cards. Realistically, the bank would be destroyed by being excluded from payment networks and card issuance. So only very little banks that don't interact with anything American (you might manage this with a credit union in the UK, potentially) would be your best bet.

This isn't just about being a customer to a multinational bank: this also includes European banks who do business with American banks. For instance, most credit/debit cards in Europe are based on either Mastercard or Visa. All banks I know of will allow you to pay in dollars through online banking. I don't think there are any European banks that don't communicate with American payment providers in some way by default. It's possible that there are some that trust their feature gates enough to take on these sanctioned people (like government-run banks for those who can't get a normal bank account, i.e. because of a history of fraud and crime), but I don't think these banks will advertise that ability. Perhaps if she'd take an Iranian, North Korean, or Russian bank account, she might be able to do America-free banking, but that's not very practical outside of Iran, North Korea, or Russia at the moment.

pdpi 10mo ago

I'm an EU citizen and UK resident. If I were to become one of those officials, my banking situation would become much more complex. One of the defining characteristics of the EU (not that the UK ever cared, even before leaving) is Freedom of Movement, and this is a credible threat to that freedom.

mytailorisrich 10mo ago
When in the EU the UK was actually one of the countries (if not the country) that made freedom of movement the easiest because, indeed, they did not care. You could move there with zero involvement or knowledge from the authorities.
- pdpi 10mo ago
  Yeah, moving here involved basically buying a plane ticket, and, after I got here, booking an appointment to get a National Insurance number (basically equivalent to an American Social Security number). Never occurred to me that moving to any other EU country might be harder than that.
  - embedding-shape 10mo ago
    > Never occurred to me that moving to any other EU country might be harder than that. I don't think it is? I moved to Spain from other EU country the same way, basically bought the cheapest one-way plane ticket I could find, spent ~1 month here before deciding I wanted to live here, then got myself the local residence card one morning and that's about it. Everything else just worked by using my passport in the meantime.
    - mytailorisrich 10mo ago
      > Then got myself the local residence card one morning Well, exactly. Some countries require/required registration and residence card. That did not exist in the UK when it was in the EU, you just showed your passport/ID card when you needed to prove your right to be there (basically once in a blue Moon). Even now EU residents don't have any physical documents. The National Insurance number @pdpi mentioned is unrelated as everyone has one once they work and an appointment is not always required to get one, and you can actually start working before you get one. If you work as an employee there is also usually nothing to do regarding tax.
    - wolvoleo 10mo ago
      It depends on the country. And Spain is not as simple as you say. Even getting the NIE is very difficult due to the foreign police not making enough appointments available. And expensive immigration agencies hoarding those appointments to make money. Then you need a social security number exist is different than the NIE, you need empradonamiento, you need to register with the health service and you need to set up your tax if you're going to work here (or if you live there more than 180 days of the year)
    - cinntaile 10mo ago
      It's not just registering. This assumes you had a job contract lined up or sufficient funds to support yourself.
      - embedding-shape 10mo ago

wazoox 10mo ago

You can't have a credit card which makes your life miserable in the modern world even if you can find a bank : Visa, Master Card, Amex are all American.

ivell 10mo ago
Financial sovereignty is one of the reasons India went with its own RuPay (https://www.rupay.co.in/credit-cards https://www.rupay.co.in/credit-cards) credit cards.
- fpoling 10mo ago
  Russia after starting aggressive war against Ukraine quickly deployed own version of payment system. And it has been working much better than Visa/Madtercards with much more straightforward integration with online services and very intuitive apps. Russian people who moved from Russia as refugees or just to escape mobilization or prosecution have found banking system in EU/UK/US are rather unsmooth to put it mildly.
  - machomaster 10mo ago
    1. "Quickly deployed" is misleading. The work started after 2014 when the idea of closing Russia from the SWIFT system was first discussed. Europeans didn't do that at that time (and they were, that would have been hugely problematic for Russian banks), but made Russia initiate technical work to add in-country backend. In 2022 they finally had to turn it on. But the work was 8 years in the making. 2. When it comes to Mir (Visa/Mastercard) alternatives, it is not that wide-spread. 3. The awesomeness of Russian Fintech (and IT/tech in general) is a separate thing, that has everything to do with Russians' technological ingenuity, not the government/sanctions/patriotism/safety/risk-management/sovereignty/independence.
mgaunard 10mo ago
Europe used to have its own system, but it merged with Mastercard in 2002. These days however the focus has moved to digital payments, and Europe is now backing Wero, which they aim to start rolling out properly in 2026.

hkt 10mo ago

Visa and MasterCard, for a start: if a bank issues any kind of commonly accepted debit card to someone who is sanctioned then what is at stake is that bank's ability to continue issuing those cards. Realistically, the bank would be destroyed by being excluded from payment networks and card issuance. So only very little banks that don't interact with anything American (you might manage this with a credit union in the UK, potentially) would be your best bet.