7 ms·

That's Google's SafeNet. HSBC picked a level that causes this. Google manages the blacklist of apps. We are rapidly losing our freedoms to the will of these co

That's Google's SafeNet. HSBC picked a level that causes this. Google manages the blacklist of apps. We are rapidly losing our freedoms to the will of these companies. If they decide they don't want to they can even if the law doesn't forbid it. People in Switzerland and the EU are being de-banked by local banks because of US pressure allowing them to force any bank that wants to use USD. The US has started to sanction people for free speech resulting in de-banking. Swiss law requires one bank (Postfinance) to offer banking irregardless but if you are sanctioned you can't use the wire system, no other currencies, no credit cards and you cant use Twint either so it's in effect useless. You can't pay for your health insurance or rent.

hkt 10mo ago
An Italian citizen who was debanked essentially because Trump didn't like her: https://english.elpais.com/international/2025-12-28/the-complicated-life-of-francesca-albanese-a-rising-figure-in-italy-but-barred-from-every-bank-by-trumps-sanctions.html https://english.elpais.com/international/2025-12-28/the-comp... When it comes to this kind of thing, an injury to one is an injury to all and we need to not tolerate it. At minimum, we need regulations guaranteeing that Visa and MasterCard, as well as participating banks, aren't allowed to debank anyone without judicial oversight. Make the same true of apps: call it a Banking Access Tribunal.
- neoromantique 10mo ago
  [flagged]
  - sschueller 10mo ago
    First of all you need to provide some proof because being against a genocide is not antisemitic. Hating Israel is not antisemitic even if Bibi wants you to believe that. Second of all, what happened to free speech? In fact I can list several actual antisemites currently operating freely in the US political discourse who are gathering larger and larger audiences. Why aren't they being sanctioned?
  - jeroenhd 10mo ago
    It doesn't. I don't know if she's an antisemite, but unless the bank dumps her for being one and an Italian judge agrees that they're allowed to for that reason, this is a clear result of foreign political influence. Calling the UN special rapporteur for the Palestinian territories a "vile antisemite" sounds a lot like trolling, though.
- raverbashing 10mo ago
  [flagged]
  - andrepd 10mo ago
    Irrelevant. I'd prefer laws and the courts to decide punishment for transgressions, rather than the arbitrary whims of a quasi-fascist. I'm old fashioned, I know.
    - jjgreen 10mo ago
      quasi?
  - nkrisc 10mo ago
    Wait until it’s you for some arbitrary reason.
  - monooso 10mo ago
    Maybe this will help you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_They_Came https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_They_Came
    - raverbashing 10mo ago
      [flagged]
      - andrepd 10mo ago
        [flagged]
        raverbashing 10mo ago
        You're the one advocating to help people whom not even their neighbours who share the same religion want nothing to do with it so I think you're the one who's joking
        10mo ago
- kjksf 10mo ago
  [flagged]
  - csomar 10mo ago
    > that it has anything to do with Trump That's an irrelevant detail right? The point is, she was debanked because someone in the US didn't like her, regardless of whom this person is.
  - savant2 10mo ago
    So Trump can support war criminals like Netanyahu, but when someone says Israel shouldn't colonize Palestine and practice appartheid, she becomes a mouthpiece of Hamas? Get your facts together.
  - andrepd 10mo ago
    Condemning the 7/Oct attacks as an unacceptable act of terrorism is "being a mouthpiece of Hamas"!!! Fucking _disgusting_, and many stronger words I'm trying my best to contain. We're reaching levels of wretchedness that I've never thought possible. Truly no shame anymore.
    - tdeck 10mo ago
      There wasn't shame before. Just a sense that they couldn't push the envelope too much without losing US support. Now that has been shattered.
    - compsciphd 10mo ago
      https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/10/gaza-un-experts-decry-bombing-hospitals-and-schools-crimes-against-humanity https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/10/gaza-un-expe... This is her statement essentially saying Israel bombed a hospital that we now know as close to a fact as we can, that they did not and that in fact it was a palestinian rocket that fell on the hospital. But lets say we can't know that for a fact. She was still parroting Hamas's line without any ability to validate the statement. This statement amongst many demonstrates that UN "Experts" have zero credibility in the statements they make.
embedding-shape 10mo ago
> and the EU are being de-banked by local banks because of US pressure allowing them to force any bank that wants to use USD What is this about? I'm a EU citizen, never heard about any EU citizen getting removed from any EU bank because of USD. Nor have I heard anyone being sanctioned by the US in the EU unless they're Russia-related somehow. Is there any link to a story about this?
- hkt 10mo ago
  https://english.elpais.com/international/2025-12-28/the-complicated-life-of-francesca-albanese-a-rising-figure-in-italy-but-barred-from-every-bank-by-trumps-sanctions.html https://english.elpais.com/international/2025-12-28/the-comp...
  - embedding-shape 10mo ago
    That sort of sanctioning is world-wide, isn't it? Not specifically targeting EU banks, but rather she's blacklisted from any bank in the world who follows those blacklisting lists, at least from what I understand it. Parent's comment gave me the impression that this was something exclusive to EU (and Swiss) banks in particular, since they were mentioned by name.
    - rjzzleep 10mo ago
      The world as defined by the US yeah.
    - toyg 10mo ago
      I think the meaning was "people are now targeted even in the EU".
    - _ache_ 10mo ago
      No. It's a MasterCard/Visa only (and Amercian Express I guess, maybe JCB too). So technically, she can pay by card in France, Belgium, India and others countries that don't rely exclusively on Visa/MasterCard. With local cards.
jeroenhd 10mo ago
I can't find anything about this in the API docs for neither the old SafetyNet nor its replacement (Play Integrity), can you show a source for this being related to SafetyNet? I'd like to see Kore details on this API and the apps it blocks.
kypro 10mo ago
To play devil's advocate for a moment, could this not be a risk? Is Google implementing a rule which blockes any 3rd party app which wants access to things like the keystore (which could be reasonable), or are they deliberately blocking Bitwarden?
- sschueller 10mo ago
  Yes it does. But my device, my choice. If I put my cash the under my mattress instead of a safe that is my dumb decision.
  - JumpCrisscross 10mo ago
    > But my device, my choice Given there is a choice, and given HSBC is on the hook if you get hacked in most jurisdictions, it seems fair to chalk this one up as a stupid move by HSBC that's nevertheless within their rights.
    - jsiepkes 10mo ago
      HSBC is on the hook if I get hacked? I can't think of companies having to pay up because their customers got hacked because of their doing. Let alone if it wasn't directly their doing. Solarwinds was for example never forced to pay a dime.
      - Arch-TK 10mo ago
        In the UK, yes, banks are on the hook if _you_ get scammed. It seems the bar for them to prove that you were at fault is too high so in reality the banks just make the decision on what you can buy for you. A good few years ago now (when it was possible to get something in good condition for such a measly sum) I was buying a car from a private individual. The transaction was in cash. You can't take £1500 out from an ATM, unless you spread it over multiple days, and probably doing that would also get you flagged. So I went to my bank (also HSBC coincidentally) and they required me to tell them what I was buying with that money. Now I could have lied, of course. But they could also have just told me that I can't take cash out if they didn't believe me. If you look around, there are news stories of people being denied access to their own money because the bank decided it was too risky. You can get kicked out of a bank for being too risky. And there's not even any legal requirement in the UK for a bank to offer you an account. Or well, there _is_ but like with all UK regulations which protect the individual, it's full of caveats. You are entitled to a Basic Bank Account (BBA) if you can't get any other account except if you can't verify your identity/residency, or you have a history of financial misbehaviour, or if you are too closely associated with terrorism. So I guess homeless people or pro-palestine protesters aren't allowed bank accounts.
JumpCrisscross 10mo ago
> HSBC picked a level that causes this. Google manages the blacklist of apps What is Google's rationale for flagging Bitwarden?
- deleted 10mo ago
  [deleted]
- shakna 10mo ago
  They flag "sideloading" - or anything installed by anything outside of their store. They don't always flag it. Only when SafeNet is set to paranoid levels. However, sideloading is considered a risk for some reason. Even if sideloading is a synonym for "installing".
  - ZenDroid 10mo ago
    What if you install the app via adb install? That would flag all developers' phones so I'm almost sure it's not flagged.
    - shakna 10mo ago
      Dev mode flags at paranoid level, so I'm almost certain it would. The developers of this app would have it turned off during debug builds, and on during release, so would be fine.
mamonster 10mo ago
>Swiss law requires one bank (Postfinance) to offer banking irregardless but if you are sanctioned you can't use the wire system, no other currencies, no credit cards and you cant use Twint either so it's in effect useless. You can't pay for your health insurance or rent. What's funny is that this particular jurispudence was actually enforced due to a Russian oligarch (Vekselberg) on a C permit. I am not sure regarding the rent and the health insurance, the health insurance especially as it is a legal requirement.
- _zoltan_ 10mo ago
  I'm 100% sure you can pay within Switzerland from your Postfinance account. I'd like to see some source for this...
wakawaka28 10mo ago
Do you think US pressure is behind the push for online censorship across the West? It seems to be a coordinated effort in many countries, whatever it is.
- wolvoleo 10mo ago
  Of course it is. Trump is actively trying to censor LGBTQ events and DEI at European companies, they will get blacklisted from selling anything to the US federal government.
  - wakawaka28 10mo ago
    The US government should not be promoting racist DEI policies and particular lifestyles (much less deviant sexual interests) so I'm in favor of that. I'm not in favor of actual censorship. More to the point, Trump is not (obviously) making all these countries and the EU demolish online privacy protections. There are laws constantly proposed all over the world to wreck free speech and privacy.
- michaelt 10mo ago
  The US doesn't need to pressure other nations to apply online censorship, because Facebook, Reddit, Instagram, Twitter, Youtube, Twitch, Google and Apple app stores, Steam and suchlike are all American, and censored in line with American norms.
- AnonymousPlanet 10mo ago
  Concerning an apparent coordinated effort it might be more complicated than that. The EU and Australia have always been on the verge of sweeping censorship. Look up "Zensursula" [1][2] and the censorship list that was about to be introduced in 2008 and that, for legal reasons, was illegal to even be looked at by journalists. Back then there was significant public backlash and also indirect cristicism by the US government [3]. Today there is no such criticism from the US because censorship is something that is also of an interest to the christian backers of the current government. When the cat is out of the house, the mice dance on your dinner table. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zugangserschwerungsgesetz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zugangserschwerungsgesetz 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_Australia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_Austral... 3: https://web.archive.org/web/20100123181634/http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/22/2799369.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20100123181634/http://www.abc.ne...
mkleczek 10mo ago
Here on HN I will be downvoted to oblivion but well... let's be it: There is no other way for us mortals than to go back to cash... Or start using Bitcoin. Be your own bank. Vote with your money.
- jraph 10mo ago
  Yes you might, because Bitcoin doesn't solve anything correctly (notably, its value is so volatile it can't be relied upon), while consuming an absurd amount of energy. By design, it made its first users stupidly rich, which is not a good characteristic. More importantly, it's a technical solution for a societal issue (aka, it's not at all a solution).
csomar 10mo ago
It's more insidious than that. The US is actively working on dismantling the Swiss off-shore banking system. It started with US clients and expanded from there (see: https://www.privatebankerinternational.com/news/hsbc-swiss-private-bank-cuts-middle-eastern https://www.privatebankerinternational.com/news/hsbc-swiss-p...) Guess where all these un-banked HNWI are going and who is offering them a gold card to run their businesses from?
- rwmj 10mo ago
  No idea, where will they go? Dismantling off-shore banking is generally a good thing since I'd like the ultra rich to pay tax as that funds services that I use.
  - csomar 10mo ago
    > No idea, where will they go? Most likely, the US. > Dismantling off-shore banking is generally a good thing since I'd like the ultra rich to pay tax as that funds services that I use. There are lots of uses to off-shore banking than tax-evasion. In fact, I don't think it's feasible to use any modern (CRS/FATCA compliant) banking for tax-evasion.
denysvitali 10mo ago
At least in Switzerland banks can choose to not use Play Integrity, but they generally don't want to. Yuh, which once was owned by both Postfinance and Swissquote, works without Play Integrity. Support for GrapheneOS is confirmed - see https://github.com/PrivSec-dev/banking-apps-compat-report/issues/509 https://github.com/PrivSec-dev/banking-apps-compat-report/is... The real issue is that most "legacy" banks have to comply with stupid regulations that force them to come up with these stupid solutions. Banks are lazy and find the quickest way to comply with said regulations - simply by enabling Google Play Integrity. About the whole US thingie - yes, that's true, and it's what happens if you get sanctioned. I'm pretty sure russians (and other people from sanctioned countries) have similar limitations elsewhere. In Switzerland US nationals have huge problems in opening accounts because of the whole bank secrecy law that allowed many americans to hide money from the IRS in Switzerland.
- iszomer 10mo ago
  SafeNet != SafetyNet nor Play Integrity?
  - denysvitali 10mo ago
    I thought it was just a spelling mistake. Is there really a "SafeNet" by Google? I wouldn't be surprised they made it even more confusing
- Youden 10mo ago
  I use GrapheneOS in Switzerland and am yet to find a bank or financial app that doesn't work. ZKB, UBS, Cembra, BEKB, SGKB, WIR, N26, Revolut, debiX+, SaxoTrader, Swisscard, various TWINT apps, YAPEAL and Yuh are all installed on my phone right now and all work. Most of them don't use the Play Integrity API at all and the few that do are satisfied with the minimal level that's satisfied by GrapheneOS. The catch is that you need Google Play Services installed and for many, you need to disable GrapheneOS' "Secure App Spawning" feature, which often trips root detection heuristics. I know many Russians living here and when sanctions came in, their accounts became unable to receive deposits until they provided evidence of a valid residence permit. Some have problems during permit renewals as well but overall, it's nothing like as bad as it is for Americans.
mlrtime 10mo ago
"sanction people for free speech" Not sure how this is the top post on this thread, no links nothing but misinformation and FUD. What happens in Switzerland to non US citizens is not a free speech issue no matter how you want to twist it.
symbogra 10mo ago
I can confirm that the Postfinance app doesn't work on graphene. I left some feedback and they said they're working on it so maybe there is hope. But as such I need to keep an old iphone around for banking apps. Also being an American in Switzerland trying to do banking is eye opening. Local banks mostly tell you to pound sand when they find out you're American. Regardless of this or that administration, the US is really totalitarian when it comes to finance and taxes.
CaptainZapp 10mo ago
> People in Switzerland and the EU are being de-banked by local banks because of US pressure allowing them to force any bank that wants to use USD That's not quit accurate. American citizens will indeed have a very hard time to open a bank account in Switzerland. But the reason is not so much free speech than FATCA (Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act) [0] [1] The requirements to host bank accounts for Americans are so onerous that banks rather forgo business with such clients than having to deal with the legal mess it incurs. Another reason for a bank not wanting to deal with customers are if they are on a sanctions list. People winding up on such lists usually don't do so, because they said something nasty about Mr. Trump. This, alas, may change if you look who got sanctioned in recent times just for raising the ire of the president (such as EC commissioners or ICC judges). [0] https://home.treasury.gov/policy-issues/tax-policy/foreign-account-tax-compliance-act https://home.treasury.gov/policy-issues/tax-policy/foreign-a... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Account_Tax_Compliance_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Account_Tax_Compliance...
- delaminator 10mo ago
  > because they said something nasty about Mr. Trump Well that's outrageous, I'm sure you've got a list of such people ready to tell us about it.
  - delaminator 10mo ago
    [flagged]
- 627467 10mo ago
  Any sovereign country can come up with whatever sanctions they want. The only reason the US ones have such broad reach particular in Europe is due to Europes hopeless reliance on US financial system, infrastructure and capital. Stop using eurodollar and us debt markets and sanctions would be much less impactful
627467 10mo ago
> We are rapidly losing our freedoms to the will of these companies which companies? google? I'm the first to blame them for almost anything, but how about Postfinance, twint, health insurers, landlords, all those companies you mention? shouldn't they offer ways to do business with them that does not involve some third party? - for example, OP mentions that hsbc website still works for them on android, this is more than what can be said of other banks that basically removed certain "sensitive" features from their homepages. Or practically all the neobanks who 100% rely on apps. Even those governments you mention: how hard/easy do they make for citizens to engage in commercial activity without relying on third parties or adversarial systems? I know the argument used by all of them - companies, governments: we are just "following the rules enforced on us (as interpreted by our lawyers)". Everyone goes to the "simplest" target - Google in this case - to blame for the status quo, but Google is in this position because everybody else - consumers, companies, governements, etc - buys into the "convenience" and neglect everything else.
- idle_zealot 10mo ago
  > Everyone goes to the "simplest" target - Google in this case - to blame for the status quo, but Google is in this position because everybody else Eh, I think we ought to dole out our ire in accordance with the damage. All are responsible to varying degrees, but Google is the most powerful, and has the greatest ability to curb bad behavior if they wanted to, so they get and deserve the most blame second only to the governments that let them become that powerful.
  - 627467 10mo ago
    Dole out the ire, but it won't fix the problem until you realize that everyone's dismissal of ownership and responsibility in exchange for convenience is what creates the googles and apples of the world. Google will argue they are enforcing good behaviour: if you want to rely on their technical guarantees you follow their rules/specs.
    - idle_zealot 10mo ago
      > Dole out the ire, but it won't fix the problem until you realize that everyone's dismissal of ownership and responsibility in exchange for convenience is what creates the googles and apples of the world This is the opposite of true. Blaming normal human behavior for our problems is distraction from effective action. Humans are a near-constant, you have to look to incentive structures to make any changes to the world.
ReptileMan 10mo ago
>The US has started to sanction people for free speech resulting in de-banking. The sanctioned people were "hate-speech" fighters. Which is the most Orwellian branch of Brussels machinery. While it irks me on pure power level, you could hardly imagine people more deserving to be taken couple of pegs down.
Helmut10001 10mo ago
Since this year, I have two phones: 1) An iPhone Se 2022 that I use for TOTP, banking and auth. It is always in airplane mode, unless I need to login to banks (etc). The OS will receive security updates till 2032. 2) A Pixel phone with GrapheneOS for daily use: Internet browsing, routing, phone, message etc. I found this is the only usable way in 2025.

hkt 10mo ago

An Italian citizen who was debanked essentially because Trump didn't like her: https://english.elpais.com/international/2025-12-28/the-complicated-life-of-francesca-albanese-a-rising-figure-in-italy-but-barred-from-every-bank-by-trumps-sanctions.html https://english.elpais.com/international/2025-12-28/the-comp... When it comes to this kind of thing, an injury to one is an injury to all and we need to not tolerate it. At minimum, we need regulations guaranteeing that Visa and MasterCard, as well as participating banks, aren't allowed to debank anyone without judicial oversight. Make the same true of apps: call it a Banking Access Tribunal.

neoromantique 10mo ago
[flagged]
- sschueller 10mo ago
  First of all you need to provide some proof because being against a genocide is not antisemitic. Hating Israel is not antisemitic even if Bibi wants you to believe that. Second of all, what happened to free speech? In fact I can list several actual antisemites currently operating freely in the US political discourse who are gathering larger and larger audiences. Why aren't they being sanctioned?
- jeroenhd 10mo ago
  It doesn't. I don't know if she's an antisemite, but unless the bank dumps her for being one and an Italian judge agrees that they're allowed to for that reason, this is a clear result of foreign political influence. Calling the UN special rapporteur for the Palestinian territories a "vile antisemite" sounds a lot like trolling, though.
raverbashing 10mo ago
[flagged]
- andrepd 10mo ago
  Irrelevant. I'd prefer laws and the courts to decide punishment for transgressions, rather than the arbitrary whims of a quasi-fascist. I'm old fashioned, I know.
  - jjgreen 10mo ago
    quasi?
- nkrisc 10mo ago
  Wait until it’s you for some arbitrary reason.
- monooso 10mo ago
  Maybe this will help you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_They_Came https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_They_Came
  - raverbashing 10mo ago
    [flagged]
    - andrepd 10mo ago
      [flagged]
      - raverbashing 10mo ago
        You're the one advocating to help people whom not even their neighbours who share the same religion want nothing to do with it so I think you're the one who's joking
        10mo ago
kjksf 10mo ago
[flagged]
- csomar 10mo ago
  > that it has anything to do with Trump That's an irrelevant detail right? The point is, she was debanked because someone in the US didn't like her, regardless of whom this person is.
- savant2 10mo ago
  So Trump can support war criminals like Netanyahu, but when someone says Israel shouldn't colonize Palestine and practice appartheid, she becomes a mouthpiece of Hamas? Get your facts together.
- andrepd 10mo ago
  Condemning the 7/Oct attacks as an unacceptable act of terrorism is "being a mouthpiece of Hamas"!!! Fucking _disgusting_, and many stronger words I'm trying my best to contain. We're reaching levels of wretchedness that I've never thought possible. Truly no shame anymore.
  - tdeck 10mo ago
    There wasn't shame before. Just a sense that they couldn't push the envelope too much without losing US support. Now that has been shattered.
  - compsciphd 10mo ago
    https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/10/gaza-un-experts-decry-bombing-hospitals-and-schools-crimes-against-humanity https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/10/gaza-un-expe... This is her statement essentially saying Israel bombed a hospital that we now know as close to a fact as we can, that they did not and that in fact it was a palestinian rocket that fell on the hospital. But lets say we can't know that for a fact. She was still parroting Hamas's line without any ability to validate the statement. This statement amongst many demonstrates that UN "Experts" have zero credibility in the statements they make.

embedding-shape 10mo ago

> and the EU are being de-banked by local banks because of US pressure allowing them to force any bank that wants to use USD What is this about? I'm a EU citizen, never heard about any EU citizen getting removed from any EU bank because of USD. Nor have I heard anyone being sanctioned by the US in the EU unless they're Russia-related somehow. Is there any link to a story about this?

hkt 10mo ago
https://english.elpais.com/international/2025-12-28/the-complicated-life-of-francesca-albanese-a-rising-figure-in-italy-but-barred-from-every-bank-by-trumps-sanctions.html https://english.elpais.com/international/2025-12-28/the-comp...
- embedding-shape 10mo ago
  That sort of sanctioning is world-wide, isn't it? Not specifically targeting EU banks, but rather she's blacklisted from any bank in the world who follows those blacklisting lists, at least from what I understand it. Parent's comment gave me the impression that this was something exclusive to EU (and Swiss) banks in particular, since they were mentioned by name.
  - rjzzleep 10mo ago
    The world as defined by the US yeah.
  - toyg 10mo ago
    I think the meaning was "people are now targeted even in the EU".
  - _ache_ 10mo ago
    No. It's a MasterCard/Visa only (and Amercian Express I guess, maybe JCB too). So technically, she can pay by card in France, Belgium, India and others countries that don't rely exclusively on Visa/MasterCard. With local cards.

jeroenhd 10mo ago

I can't find anything about this in the API docs for neither the old SafetyNet nor its replacement (Play Integrity), can you show a source for this being related to SafetyNet? I'd like to see Kore details on this API and the apps it blocks.

kypro 10mo ago

To play devil's advocate for a moment, could this not be a risk? Is Google implementing a rule which blockes any 3rd party app which wants access to things like the keystore (which could be reasonable), or are they deliberately blocking Bitwarden?

sschueller 10mo ago
Yes it does. But my device, my choice. If I put my cash the under my mattress instead of a safe that is my dumb decision.
- JumpCrisscross 10mo ago
  > But my device, my choice Given there is a choice, and given HSBC is on the hook if you get hacked in most jurisdictions, it seems fair to chalk this one up as a stupid move by HSBC that's nevertheless within their rights.
  - jsiepkes 10mo ago
    HSBC is on the hook if I get hacked? I can't think of companies having to pay up because their customers got hacked because of their doing. Let alone if it wasn't directly their doing. Solarwinds was for example never forced to pay a dime.
    - Arch-TK 10mo ago
      In the UK, yes, banks are on the hook if _you_ get scammed. It seems the bar for them to prove that you were at fault is too high so in reality the banks just make the decision on what you can buy for you. A good few years ago now (when it was possible to get something in good condition for such a measly sum) I was buying a car from a private individual. The transaction was in cash. You can't take £1500 out from an ATM, unless you spread it over multiple days, and probably doing that would also get you flagged. So I went to my bank (also HSBC coincidentally) and they required me to tell them what I was buying with that money. Now I could have lied, of course. But they could also have just told me that I can't take cash out if they didn't believe me. If you look around, there are news stories of people being denied access to their own money because the bank decided it was too risky. You can get kicked out of a bank for being too risky. And there's not even any legal requirement in the UK for a bank to offer you an account. Or well, there _is_ but like with all UK regulations which protect the individual, it's full of caveats. You are entitled to a Basic Bank Account (BBA) if you can't get any other account except if you can't verify your identity/residency, or you have a history of financial misbehaviour, or if you are too closely associated with terrorism. So I guess homeless people or pro-palestine protesters aren't allowed bank accounts.

JumpCrisscross 10mo ago

> HSBC picked a level that causes this. Google manages the blacklist of apps What is Google's rationale for flagging Bitwarden?

deleted 10mo ago
[deleted]
shakna 10mo ago
They flag "sideloading" - or anything installed by anything outside of their store. They don't always flag it. Only when SafeNet is set to paranoid levels. However, sideloading is considered a risk for some reason. Even if sideloading is a synonym for "installing".
- ZenDroid 10mo ago
  What if you install the app via adb install? That would flag all developers' phones so I'm almost sure it's not flagged.
  - shakna 10mo ago
    Dev mode flags at paranoid level, so I'm almost certain it would. The developers of this app would have it turned off during debug builds, and on during release, so would be fine.

mamonster 10mo ago

>Swiss law requires one bank (Postfinance) to offer banking irregardless but if you are sanctioned you can't use the wire system, no other currencies, no credit cards and you cant use Twint either so it's in effect useless. You can't pay for your health insurance or rent. What's funny is that this particular jurispudence was actually enforced due to a Russian oligarch (Vekselberg) on a C permit. I am not sure regarding the rent and the health insurance, the health insurance especially as it is a legal requirement.

_zoltan_ 10mo ago
I'm 100% sure you can pay within Switzerland from your Postfinance account. I'd like to see some source for this...

wakawaka28 10mo ago

Do you think US pressure is behind the push for online censorship across the West? It seems to be a coordinated effort in many countries, whatever it is.

wolvoleo 10mo ago
Of course it is. Trump is actively trying to censor LGBTQ events and DEI at European companies, they will get blacklisted from selling anything to the US federal government.
- wakawaka28 10mo ago
  The US government should not be promoting racist DEI policies and particular lifestyles (much less deviant sexual interests) so I'm in favor of that. I'm not in favor of actual censorship. More to the point, Trump is not (obviously) making all these countries and the EU demolish online privacy protections. There are laws constantly proposed all over the world to wreck free speech and privacy.
michaelt 10mo ago
The US doesn't need to pressure other nations to apply online censorship, because Facebook, Reddit, Instagram, Twitter, Youtube, Twitch, Google and Apple app stores, Steam and suchlike are all American, and censored in line with American norms.
AnonymousPlanet 10mo ago
Concerning an apparent coordinated effort it might be more complicated than that. The EU and Australia have always been on the verge of sweeping censorship. Look up "Zensursula" [1][2] and the censorship list that was about to be introduced in 2008 and that, for legal reasons, was illegal to even be looked at by journalists. Back then there was significant public backlash and also indirect cristicism by the US government [3]. Today there is no such criticism from the US because censorship is something that is also of an interest to the christian backers of the current government. When the cat is out of the house, the mice dance on your dinner table. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zugangserschwerungsgesetz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zugangserschwerungsgesetz 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_Australia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_Austral... 3: https://web.archive.org/web/20100123181634/http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/22/2799369.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20100123181634/http://www.abc.ne...

mkleczek 10mo ago

Here on HN I will be downvoted to oblivion but well... let's be it: There is no other way for us mortals than to go back to cash... Or start using Bitcoin. Be your own bank. Vote with your money.

jraph 10mo ago
Yes you might, because Bitcoin doesn't solve anything correctly (notably, its value is so volatile it can't be relied upon), while consuming an absurd amount of energy. By design, it made its first users stupidly rich, which is not a good characteristic. More importantly, it's a technical solution for a societal issue (aka, it's not at all a solution).

csomar 10mo ago

It's more insidious than that. The US is actively working on dismantling the Swiss off-shore banking system. It started with US clients and expanded from there (see: https://www.privatebankerinternational.com/news/hsbc-swiss-private-bank-cuts-middle-eastern https://www.privatebankerinternational.com/news/hsbc-swiss-p...) Guess where all these un-banked HNWI are going and who is offering them a gold card to run their businesses from?

rwmj 10mo ago
No idea, where will they go? Dismantling off-shore banking is generally a good thing since I'd like the ultra rich to pay tax as that funds services that I use.
- csomar 10mo ago
  > No idea, where will they go? Most likely, the US. > Dismantling off-shore banking is generally a good thing since I'd like the ultra rich to pay tax as that funds services that I use. There are lots of uses to off-shore banking than tax-evasion. In fact, I don't think it's feasible to use any modern (CRS/FATCA compliant) banking for tax-evasion.

denysvitali 10mo ago

At least in Switzerland banks can choose to not use Play Integrity, but they generally don't want to. Yuh, which once was owned by both Postfinance and Swissquote, works without Play Integrity. Support for GrapheneOS is confirmed - see https://github.com/PrivSec-dev/banking-apps-compat-report/issues/509 https://github.com/PrivSec-dev/banking-apps-compat-report/is... The real issue is that most "legacy" banks have to comply with stupid regulations that force them to come up with these stupid solutions. Banks are lazy and find the quickest way to comply with said regulations - simply by enabling Google Play Integrity. About the whole US thingie - yes, that's true, and it's what happens if you get sanctioned. I'm pretty sure russians (and other people from sanctioned countries) have similar limitations elsewhere. In Switzerland US nationals have huge problems in opening accounts because of the whole bank secrecy law that allowed many americans to hide money from the IRS in Switzerland.

iszomer 10mo ago
SafeNet != SafetyNet nor Play Integrity?
- denysvitali 10mo ago
  I thought it was just a spelling mistake. Is there really a "SafeNet" by Google? I wouldn't be surprised they made it even more confusing
Youden 10mo ago
I use GrapheneOS in Switzerland and am yet to find a bank or financial app that doesn't work. ZKB, UBS, Cembra, BEKB, SGKB, WIR, N26, Revolut, debiX+, SaxoTrader, Swisscard, various TWINT apps, YAPEAL and Yuh are all installed on my phone right now and all work. Most of them don't use the Play Integrity API at all and the few that do are satisfied with the minimal level that's satisfied by GrapheneOS. The catch is that you need Google Play Services installed and for many, you need to disable GrapheneOS' "Secure App Spawning" feature, which often trips root detection heuristics. I know many Russians living here and when sanctions came in, their accounts became unable to receive deposits until they provided evidence of a valid residence permit. Some have problems during permit renewals as well but overall, it's nothing like as bad as it is for Americans.

mlrtime 10mo ago

"sanction people for free speech" Not sure how this is the top post on this thread, no links nothing but misinformation and FUD. What happens in Switzerland to non US citizens is not a free speech issue no matter how you want to twist it.

symbogra 10mo ago

I can confirm that the Postfinance app doesn't work on graphene. I left some feedback and they said they're working on it so maybe there is hope. But as such I need to keep an old iphone around for banking apps. Also being an American in Switzerland trying to do banking is eye opening. Local banks mostly tell you to pound sand when they find out you're American. Regardless of this or that administration, the US is really totalitarian when it comes to finance and taxes.

CaptainZapp 10mo ago

> People in Switzerland and the EU are being de-banked by local banks because of US pressure allowing them to force any bank that wants to use USD That's not quit accurate. American citizens will indeed have a very hard time to open a bank account in Switzerland. But the reason is not so much free speech than FATCA (Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act) [0] [1] The requirements to host bank accounts for Americans are so onerous that banks rather forgo business with such clients than having to deal with the legal mess it incurs. Another reason for a bank not wanting to deal with customers are if they are on a sanctions list. People winding up on such lists usually don't do so, because they said something nasty about Mr. Trump. This, alas, may change if you look who got sanctioned in recent times just for raising the ire of the president (such as EC commissioners or ICC judges). [0] https://home.treasury.gov/policy-issues/tax-policy/foreign-account-tax-compliance-act https://home.treasury.gov/policy-issues/tax-policy/foreign-a... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Account_Tax_Compliance_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Account_Tax_Compliance...

delaminator 10mo ago
> because they said something nasty about Mr. Trump Well that's outrageous, I'm sure you've got a list of such people ready to tell us about it.
- delaminator 10mo ago
  [flagged]
627467 10mo ago
Any sovereign country can come up with whatever sanctions they want. The only reason the US ones have such broad reach particular in Europe is due to Europes hopeless reliance on US financial system, infrastructure and capital. Stop using eurodollar and us debt markets and sanctions would be much less impactful

627467 10mo ago

> We are rapidly losing our freedoms to the will of these companies which companies? google? I'm the first to blame them for almost anything, but how about Postfinance, twint, health insurers, landlords, all those companies you mention? shouldn't they offer ways to do business with them that does not involve some third party? - for example, OP mentions that hsbc website still works for them on android, this is more than what can be said of other banks that basically removed certain "sensitive" features from their homepages. Or practically all the neobanks who 100% rely on apps. Even those governments you mention: how hard/easy do they make for citizens to engage in commercial activity without relying on third parties or adversarial systems? I know the argument used by all of them - companies, governments: we are just "following the rules enforced on us (as interpreted by our lawyers)". Everyone goes to the "simplest" target - Google in this case - to blame for the status quo, but Google is in this position because everybody else - consumers, companies, governements, etc - buys into the "convenience" and neglect everything else.

idle_zealot 10mo ago
> Everyone goes to the "simplest" target - Google in this case - to blame for the status quo, but Google is in this position because everybody else Eh, I think we ought to dole out our ire in accordance with the damage. All are responsible to varying degrees, but Google is the most powerful, and has the greatest ability to curb bad behavior if they wanted to, so they get and deserve the most blame second only to the governments that let them become that powerful.
- 627467 10mo ago
  Dole out the ire, but it won't fix the problem until you realize that everyone's dismissal of ownership and responsibility in exchange for convenience is what creates the googles and apples of the world. Google will argue they are enforcing good behaviour: if you want to rely on their technical guarantees you follow their rules/specs.
  - idle_zealot 10mo ago
    > Dole out the ire, but it won't fix the problem until you realize that everyone's dismissal of ownership and responsibility in exchange for convenience is what creates the googles and apples of the world This is the opposite of true. Blaming normal human behavior for our problems is distraction from effective action. Humans are a near-constant, you have to look to incentive structures to make any changes to the world.

ReptileMan 10mo ago

>The US has started to sanction people for free speech resulting in de-banking. The sanctioned people were "hate-speech" fighters. Which is the most Orwellian branch of Brussels machinery. While it irks me on pure power level, you could hardly imagine people more deserving to be taken couple of pegs down.

Helmut10001 10mo ago

Since this year, I have two phones: 1) An iPhone Se 2022 that I use for TOTP, banking and auth. It is always in airplane mode, unless I need to login to banks (etc). The OS will receive security updates till 2032. 2) A Pixel phone with GrapheneOS for daily use: Internet browsing, routing, phone, message etc. I found this is the only usable way in 2025.