4 ms·

More generally, don't have dealings with assholes. Don't work for them, don't hire them, don't have them as cofounders, don't take investment from them. One o

by pg 18y ago

More generally, don't have dealings with assholes. Don't work for them, don't hire them, don't have them as cofounders, don't take investment from them. One of the things I always ask speakers at YC is what they know now that they didn't know when they were 25. The most common answer is probably to trust their instincts about people. When you run into a person who's bad news, there's often a little voice inside you saying "watch out." When you're young, you feel like you should ignore it, because it seems so arbitrary.

derefr 18y ago
Does this extend to not selling your product to, or marketing to, assholes? I can see "don't have assholes as repeat/contract-based clients" as obvious, but what about "don't have assholes as one-time customers?" If you never have to deal with them again, does it matter?
- helveticaman 18y ago
  I can think of two exceptions that support the rule: Very impersonal transactions: say you're running a kiosk, and a guy comes up to buy a candy bar, and you recognize him from college, but know he's an asshole. You can still sell him that candy bar. Smaller of two assholes: there will be times when you will have to deal with an asshole to avoid an even bigger asshole. Then it's fine; it's a life skill to be able to deal with difficult people.
- pg 18y ago
  Yes, it's ok to have assholes as customers. One of the great things about the seller-customer relationship is that it's proof against that. When you have asshole customers, it's usually possible to turn them by being really nice to them. This doesn't seem to be the case with bosses. So that is another great thing about the seller-customer relationship. I think the key is that there is no authority mixed into it. Assholes and authority are a bad combination.
- chris11 18y ago
  I think it could work out as long as you know what you are willing to accept. If somebody demands a discount from you, just tell them no. If somebody you up demanding that you drop everything to work on their problem right then, just let them know that you are concerned about their problem, when you except to try and deal with it, and quickly cut the conversation short. As long as you deal with them in a way that is acceptable to you, you have lost almost nothing selling them a product once if they treat you badly. And you have gained some money, and as PG said if you treat them fairly and very nicely, they might change.
kurtosis 18y ago
"When you're young, you feel like you should ignore it, because it seems so arbitrary." Of course different people will ignore this intuitive feeling for different reasons, but I suspect that people rarely do so because it feels arbitrary. Usually people tolerate mean behaviour because there is an asymmetry of power in a relationship. When you need someone more than they need you, they can make harsh demands and treat you like dirt and you will still cooperate. If people refused to cooperate with assholes, or imposed a cost on assholish behaviour then it would stop or be reduced. The fact there are so many giant assholes walking around suggests that being an asshole works, at least sometimes. I don't think there's anything magical about these instincts. If you observe someone treating another person badly, it's entirely reasonable to imagine that they will do the same to you.
- olefoo 18y ago
  > The fact there are so many giant assholes walking around suggests that being an asshole works, at least sometimes. So how do we raise the costs of being an Asshole? I'm asking this from a serious, hacking-the-monkeyware perspective.
  - pg 18y ago
    So how do we raise the costs of being an Asshole? Increase the rate at which reputation spreads between people. This is actually one of the goals of YC. Historically investors have often behaved like assholes to founders. But if someone maltreats a YC startup, 300 people know about it. Most investors sense this and try to at least act upstanding. I was talking to a YC founder recently who's working on a fairly fragile idea, in the sense that it's both good and easily copyable at this stage. He was worried that if he talked to VCs about it, they might encourage someone to copy it. I could honestly tell him "they wouldn't dare."
  - kurtosis 18y ago
    public exposure / abandonment Break out the back of the envelope and calculate how much it would cost you to break all contacts with anuses. Is it worth it? Make sure people find out how you were treated. A guy I respect much for his technical skills wanted to go in with me a very interesting and technically challenging project in vison / imaging. Even though I have always been on friendly terms with this person with good rapport, and actually enjoy talking tech stuff with him - I refused just because of the way I have seen him treat other people. There was lots of vindictiveness, a tendency toward feuding. I didn't want to risk being involved with that no matter how interesting the work. if you must deal with aholes or if you are unsure if a person is an ahole keep the stakes low. don't be an ahole yourself, and of course, most people aren't aholes.
jfarmer 18y ago
I learned this the hard way. The really hard way. :(
azanar 18y ago
> The most common answer is probably to trust their instincts about people. A couple questions about this: * Do they offer any advice on how to hone this instinct? I'm assuming they still get false positives; do they know of any traits/behaviors that seem to go either way, and ways to gauge which way those traits are more likely to tend? * On the same thought as the previous question, do they think their 25 year old selves would've made the right instinctual call in recent encounters they've had? I ask because of the possibility of a hindsight bias. It seems possible that along with learning to trust their instinct more, they've had more data to train their instinct.
ojbyrne 18y ago
It seems like its a requirement for C-level positions. There's some research to back up my impression: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0767915828 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0767915828

by pg 18y ago

derefr 18y ago

Does this extend to not selling your product to, or marketing to, assholes? I can see "don't have assholes as repeat/contract-based clients" as obvious, but what about "don't have assholes as one-time customers?" If you never have to deal with them again, does it matter?

helveticaman 18y ago
I can think of two exceptions that support the rule: Very impersonal transactions: say you're running a kiosk, and a guy comes up to buy a candy bar, and you recognize him from college, but know he's an asshole. You can still sell him that candy bar. Smaller of two assholes: there will be times when you will have to deal with an asshole to avoid an even bigger asshole. Then it's fine; it's a life skill to be able to deal with difficult people.
pg 18y ago
Yes, it's ok to have assholes as customers. One of the great things about the seller-customer relationship is that it's proof against that. When you have asshole customers, it's usually possible to turn them by being really nice to them. This doesn't seem to be the case with bosses. So that is another great thing about the seller-customer relationship. I think the key is that there is no authority mixed into it. Assholes and authority are a bad combination.
chris11 18y ago
I think it could work out as long as you know what you are willing to accept. If somebody demands a discount from you, just tell them no. If somebody you up demanding that you drop everything to work on their problem right then, just let them know that you are concerned about their problem, when you except to try and deal with it, and quickly cut the conversation short. As long as you deal with them in a way that is acceptable to you, you have lost almost nothing selling them a product once if they treat you badly. And you have gained some money, and as PG said if you treat them fairly and very nicely, they might change.

kurtosis 18y ago

"When you're young, you feel like you should ignore it, because it seems so arbitrary." Of course different people will ignore this intuitive feeling for different reasons, but I suspect that people rarely do so because it feels arbitrary. Usually people tolerate mean behaviour because there is an asymmetry of power in a relationship. When you need someone more than they need you, they can make harsh demands and treat you like dirt and you will still cooperate. If people refused to cooperate with assholes, or imposed a cost on assholish behaviour then it would stop or be reduced. The fact there are so many giant assholes walking around suggests that being an asshole works, at least sometimes. I don't think there's anything magical about these instincts. If you observe someone treating another person badly, it's entirely reasonable to imagine that they will do the same to you.

olefoo 18y ago
> The fact there are so many giant assholes walking around suggests that being an asshole works, at least sometimes. So how do we raise the costs of being an Asshole? I'm asking this from a serious, hacking-the-monkeyware perspective.
- pg 18y ago
  So how do we raise the costs of being an Asshole? Increase the rate at which reputation spreads between people. This is actually one of the goals of YC. Historically investors have often behaved like assholes to founders. But if someone maltreats a YC startup, 300 people know about it. Most investors sense this and try to at least act upstanding. I was talking to a YC founder recently who's working on a fairly fragile idea, in the sense that it's both good and easily copyable at this stage. He was worried that if he talked to VCs about it, they might encourage someone to copy it. I could honestly tell him "they wouldn't dare."
- kurtosis 18y ago
  public exposure / abandonment Break out the back of the envelope and calculate how much it would cost you to break all contacts with anuses. Is it worth it? Make sure people find out how you were treated. A guy I respect much for his technical skills wanted to go in with me a very interesting and technically challenging project in vison / imaging. Even though I have always been on friendly terms with this person with good rapport, and actually enjoy talking tech stuff with him - I refused just because of the way I have seen him treat other people. There was lots of vindictiveness, a tendency toward feuding. I didn't want to risk being involved with that no matter how interesting the work. if you must deal with aholes or if you are unsure if a person is an ahole keep the stakes low. don't be an ahole yourself, and of course, most people aren't aholes.

jfarmer 18y ago

I learned this the hard way. The really hard way. :(

azanar 18y ago

> The most common answer is probably to trust their instincts about people. A couple questions about this: * Do they offer any advice on how to hone this instinct? I'm assuming they still get false positives; do they know of any traits/behaviors that seem to go either way, and ways to gauge which way those traits are more likely to tend? * On the same thought as the previous question, do they think their 25 year old selves would've made the right instinctual call in recent encounters they've had? I ask because of the possibility of a hindsight bias. It seems possible that along with learning to trust their instinct more, they've had more data to train their instinct.

ojbyrne 18y ago

It seems like its a requirement for C-level positions. There's some research to back up my impression: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0767915828 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0767915828