5 ms·

They should refresh Steam Deck more often still. Laptops and phones have more frequent refresh cadence, why not gaming devices. May be it shouldn't be as frequ

by shmerl 10mo ago

They should refresh Steam Deck more often still. Laptops and phones have more frequent refresh cadence, why not gaming devices. May be it shouldn't be as frequent, but still more frequent than what it has now.

fao_ 10mo ago
Part of the point and usefulness is having a stable target for developers to aim at, that they can test performance on. Also, most phones these days are roughly equivalent from the end-user perspective to ones from 2 or 3 years ago, the only difference is increased waste. So... no, no thank you. Does anyone want to buy a phone every few years? No, I don't think they do.
- shmerl 10mo ago
  You don't have to buy it with each iteration, but at the same time if I'm buying one, I don't want to buy hardware that's many generations behind current one. If I build a new PC myself - I don't have such problem. With laptops - it's a bit behind (usually one generation for AMD with their APUs approach). I don't think anyone complains that there is a choice. And somehow above doesn't prevent games being released that can scale according to the hardware and aren't tied to a specific hardware generation target. So I don't really see why this has to dictate handhelds to have way slower refresh cycle.
  - palata 10mo ago
    > And somehow above doesn't prevent games being released that can scale according to the hardware and aren't tied to a specific hardware generation target. In theory, sure. In practice... just look at pretty much all software out there and you will be proven wrong. Every. Single. Time.
  - wiseowise 10mo ago
    Hardware sales FOMO brainrot got to you.
  - fao_ 10mo ago
    > And somehow above doesn't prevent games being released that can scale according to the hardware and aren't tied to a specific hardware generation target. Until the Steam Deck came out, I had no hope of playing a game like Sekiro. And even then, the machine I built to play Seikro would not then have also played the second Spiderman game, because those are different console generations. Now, both are targeted in part at the Steam Deck, and it can run both of them. This actually is a huge boon for the industry, and like I said, > Part of the point and usefulness is having a stable target for developers to aim at, that they can test performance on
netule 10mo ago
Why should they? Do you think the phone refresh cycle is a healthy one to emulate?
- shmerl 10mo ago
  Phones try to emulate PC refresh cycle. Is it healthy? You get new generation of CPUs / GPUs roughly once in two years. I'd say it's OK. You can easily skip a generation and upgrade say once in 4 years or even less frequently. But at the same I think it's good that there is an option to get newer hardware at that cadence.
  - palata 10mo ago
    > You get new generation of CPUs / GPUs roughly once in two years. I'd say it's OK. If you look at sustainability, it is obviously not okay. And for what? Websites and mobile apps that get bulkier and less efficient slightly faster than the refresh cycle. I recently replaced my smartphone - not because I wanted to, but because the main app I use (like banking, nothing that should require a big CPU) were lagging so much that they were unusable. A banking app is supposed to print a few numbers to the screen, and yet it doesn't work on a 5 years old smartphone.
  - ribosometronome 10mo ago
    Skip one generation? As of September, the bulk of Steam users were still on 1xxx and 2xxx era or equivalent performing GPUs. https://www.reddit.com/r/pcmasterrace/comments/1oi499v/percentage_of_steam_users_by_gpu_performance/ https://www.reddit.com/r/pcmasterrace/comments/1oi499v/perce...
adgjlsfhk1 10mo ago
honestly at this point, phones and personal computers probably should move to a 2 year cadence. The R&D costs are going up and the performance benefits are decreasing.
- shmerl 10mo ago
  I thought PCs are already doing it. I think AMD releases new CPUs and GPUs roughly once in two years, unless I'm missing something.
SequoiaHope 10mo ago
I watched some behind the scenes videos about Valve’s Steam Frame development, and it doesn’t seem like they have a very big hardware team.
- ribosometronome 10mo ago
  They don't have a very big team in general. They've got roughly the same headcount as a studio like Obsidian.
discordance 10mo ago
A counter argument - the Switch gave game devs a solid platform to target without being the latest and greatest without compromising the usability or fun factor
- shmerl 10mo ago
  I've heard that argument before, but I don't buy it. Whole PC gaming is a counter argument. Let developers make games that scale according to hardware, instead of excusing things with weak specs.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 10mo ago
    > Let developers make games that scale according to hardware I'd love that, but I would argue that the evidence shows they don't do it.
    - ehnto 10mo ago
      Even in PC gaming, the performance target tends to be the lowest performing current gen console, not the best PC. Which is a totally reasonable approach and has given my PC years of usefulness even though better equipment is out there. The cutting edge of PCs is such a tiny minority of users, even amongst PC gamers it's still a fraction of users. That was not always the case for PC gaming, on modest means in my teens I could at least keep up with graphics card releases. I don't bother with that now, because I don't have to and gain very little from doing so.
      - palata 10mo ago
        > Even in PC gaming, the performance target tends to be the lowest performing current gen console, not the best PC. I would have said "even static websites don't care about older hardware". I am very happy that Valve doesn't refresh the SteamDeck every year exactly for that reason: developers can target "the SteamDeck" instead of "the latest 3 SteamDecks" and force me to buy one every 3 years.
  - 10mo ago
Jach 10mo ago
It was released February 2022, that's only almost 4 years ago. 4-5 years is a good target for a refresh, I'll be somewhat surprised if there's not a new one in 2027 (but I was surprised by the lifespan of the Switch, and even the 7-8 years of the 360/PS3 era were surprisingly long, long generations are common now so no new Deck until 2028 or 2029 isn't out of the question), but any more frequently doesn't really make sense as the important components aren't improving in price/capability fast enough, and the initial release was and still is very capable rather than woefully inadequate. The motivations for upgrading are also different from a phone or more general laptop. I think the most common ranking of priorities for improvement would be: having various games run at all (mostly a software problem, Steam Deck already supports hardware ray tracing that various games now require), similar price range, better active battery life, physically lighter, and last would be higher graphical fidelity/performance. The things further down can't compromise the things higher up. Battery life advances being slow is kind of the killer. There's a point that they could prioritize selling to new owners over existing owners looking to upgrade, and having a more capable device would help with that, but I think the marginal increase is probably not very big. The Steam Deck estimated sales were at 4 million units earlier this year, but that's still a relatively small portion of the whole PC gaming market (132m monthly active users on steam alone by 2021). It has been a big success for them, but it still exceeded their expectations, so I think they also would be skeptical of any large marginal improvement of new owner sales for what would likely be a minor improvement on the important specs. There's also competition from Windows handhelds whose sales don't suggest a large market just wishing Valve had a slightly more capable device that they'd pay more for.
mhitza 10mo ago
It's been just 2 years since the OLED release, I think we're closing in on a refresh. Unless a deck is a year away from a generational bump. A refresh could include the updated joysticks featured on the Steam controller, though. Till then I'd think I'd do more good for Valve to focus on their steam app and store experience.
- hulahoof 10mo ago
  I think they recently said they aren’t looking for a refresh for at least 2 years https://www.pcgamer.com/hardware/valve-says-a-next-gen-steam-deck-2-still-isnt-possible-two-years-after-it-last-said-exactly-the-same-thing/ https://www.pcgamer.com/hardware/valve-says-a-next-gen-steam...
PacificSpecific 10mo ago
I would much rather a refresh every 5+ years with a more profound hardware improvement. I'm even fine with closer to 10 years if the technology hasn't changed that much at the 5 year mark.
whywhywhywhy 10mo ago
No one would bother optimizing for it at all if it had a yearly refresh. Not saying that's why they don't, but that would be a side effect. I actually think it's more their business doesn't rely on selling Steam Decks, hardware business where you do a yearly refresh is a very different beast to one you do a new model every few years. Their organization doesn't seem set up for that.

by shmerl 10mo ago

fao_ 10mo ago

Part of the point and usefulness is having a stable target for developers to aim at, that they can test performance on. Also, most phones these days are roughly equivalent from the end-user perspective to ones from 2 or 3 years ago, the only difference is increased waste. So... no, no thank you. Does anyone want to buy a phone every few years? No, I don't think they do.

shmerl 10mo ago
You don't have to buy it with each iteration, but at the same time if I'm buying one, I don't want to buy hardware that's many generations behind current one. If I build a new PC myself - I don't have such problem. With laptops - it's a bit behind (usually one generation for AMD with their APUs approach). I don't think anyone complains that there is a choice. And somehow above doesn't prevent games being released that can scale according to the hardware and aren't tied to a specific hardware generation target. So I don't really see why this has to dictate handhelds to have way slower refresh cycle.
- palata 10mo ago
  > And somehow above doesn't prevent games being released that can scale according to the hardware and aren't tied to a specific hardware generation target. In theory, sure. In practice... just look at pretty much all software out there and you will be proven wrong. Every. Single. Time.
- wiseowise 10mo ago
  Hardware sales FOMO brainrot got to you.
- fao_ 10mo ago
  > And somehow above doesn't prevent games being released that can scale according to the hardware and aren't tied to a specific hardware generation target. Until the Steam Deck came out, I had no hope of playing a game like Sekiro. And even then, the machine I built to play Seikro would not then have also played the second Spiderman game, because those are different console generations. Now, both are targeted in part at the Steam Deck, and it can run both of them. This actually is a huge boon for the industry, and like I said, > Part of the point and usefulness is having a stable target for developers to aim at, that they can test performance on

netule 10mo ago

Why should they? Do you think the phone refresh cycle is a healthy one to emulate?

shmerl 10mo ago
Phones try to emulate PC refresh cycle. Is it healthy? You get new generation of CPUs / GPUs roughly once in two years. I'd say it's OK. You can easily skip a generation and upgrade say once in 4 years or even less frequently. But at the same I think it's good that there is an option to get newer hardware at that cadence.
- palata 10mo ago
  > You get new generation of CPUs / GPUs roughly once in two years. I'd say it's OK. If you look at sustainability, it is obviously not okay. And for what? Websites and mobile apps that get bulkier and less efficient slightly faster than the refresh cycle. I recently replaced my smartphone - not because I wanted to, but because the main app I use (like banking, nothing that should require a big CPU) were lagging so much that they were unusable. A banking app is supposed to print a few numbers to the screen, and yet it doesn't work on a 5 years old smartphone.
- ribosometronome 10mo ago
  Skip one generation? As of September, the bulk of Steam users were still on 1xxx and 2xxx era or equivalent performing GPUs. https://www.reddit.com/r/pcmasterrace/comments/1oi499v/percentage_of_steam_users_by_gpu_performance/ https://www.reddit.com/r/pcmasterrace/comments/1oi499v/perce...

adgjlsfhk1 10mo ago

honestly at this point, phones and personal computers probably should move to a 2 year cadence. The R&D costs are going up and the performance benefits are decreasing.

shmerl 10mo ago
I thought PCs are already doing it. I think AMD releases new CPUs and GPUs roughly once in two years, unless I'm missing something.

SequoiaHope 10mo ago

I watched some behind the scenes videos about Valve’s Steam Frame development, and it doesn’t seem like they have a very big hardware team.

ribosometronome 10mo ago
They don't have a very big team in general. They've got roughly the same headcount as a studio like Obsidian.

discordance 10mo ago

A counter argument - the Switch gave game devs a solid platform to target without being the latest and greatest without compromising the usability or fun factor

shmerl 10mo ago
I've heard that argument before, but I don't buy it. Whole PC gaming is a counter argument. Let developers make games that scale according to hardware, instead of excusing things with weak specs.
- yjftsjthsd-h 10mo ago
  > Let developers make games that scale according to hardware I'd love that, but I would argue that the evidence shows they don't do it.
  - ehnto 10mo ago
    Even in PC gaming, the performance target tends to be the lowest performing current gen console, not the best PC. Which is a totally reasonable approach and has given my PC years of usefulness even though better equipment is out there. The cutting edge of PCs is such a tiny minority of users, even amongst PC gamers it's still a fraction of users. That was not always the case for PC gaming, on modest means in my teens I could at least keep up with graphics card releases. I don't bother with that now, because I don't have to and gain very little from doing so.
    - palata 10mo ago
      > Even in PC gaming, the performance target tends to be the lowest performing current gen console, not the best PC. I would have said "even static websites don't care about older hardware". I am very happy that Valve doesn't refresh the SteamDeck every year exactly for that reason: developers can target "the SteamDeck" instead of "the latest 3 SteamDecks" and force me to buy one every 3 years.
- 10mo ago

Jach 10mo ago

It was released February 2022, that's only almost 4 years ago. 4-5 years is a good target for a refresh, I'll be somewhat surprised if there's not a new one in 2027 (but I was surprised by the lifespan of the Switch, and even the 7-8 years of the 360/PS3 era were surprisingly long, long generations are common now so no new Deck until 2028 or 2029 isn't out of the question), but any more frequently doesn't really make sense as the important components aren't improving in price/capability fast enough, and the initial release was and still is very capable rather than woefully inadequate. The motivations for upgrading are also different from a phone or more general laptop. I think the most common ranking of priorities for improvement would be: having various games run at all (mostly a software problem, Steam Deck already supports hardware ray tracing that various games now require), similar price range, better active battery life, physically lighter, and last would be higher graphical fidelity/performance. The things further down can't compromise the things higher up. Battery life advances being slow is kind of the killer. There's a point that they could prioritize selling to new owners over existing owners looking to upgrade, and having a more capable device would help with that, but I think the marginal increase is probably not very big. The Steam Deck estimated sales were at 4 million units earlier this year, but that's still a relatively small portion of the whole PC gaming market (132m monthly active users on steam alone by 2021). It has been a big success for them, but it still exceeded their expectations, so I think they also would be skeptical of any large marginal improvement of new owner sales for what would likely be a minor improvement on the important specs. There's also competition from Windows handhelds whose sales don't suggest a large market just wishing Valve had a slightly more capable device that they'd pay more for.

mhitza 10mo ago

It's been just 2 years since the OLED release, I think we're closing in on a refresh. Unless a deck is a year away from a generational bump. A refresh could include the updated joysticks featured on the Steam controller, though. Till then I'd think I'd do more good for Valve to focus on their steam app and store experience.

hulahoof 10mo ago
I think they recently said they aren’t looking for a refresh for at least 2 years https://www.pcgamer.com/hardware/valve-says-a-next-gen-steam-deck-2-still-isnt-possible-two-years-after-it-last-said-exactly-the-same-thing/ https://www.pcgamer.com/hardware/valve-says-a-next-gen-steam...

PacificSpecific 10mo ago

I would much rather a refresh every 5+ years with a more profound hardware improvement. I'm even fine with closer to 10 years if the technology hasn't changed that much at the 5 year mark.

whywhywhywhy 10mo ago

No one would bother optimizing for it at all if it had a yearly refresh. Not saying that's why they don't, but that would be a side effect. I actually think it's more their business doesn't rely on selling Steam Decks, hardware business where you do a yearly refresh is a very different beast to one you do a new model every few years. Their organization doesn't seem set up for that.