6 ms·

My kid dumped a glass of water all over my MBP M1 a few days ago. Deciding between an inferior M4 with Sequoia or a fancy new M5 with Tahoe has been rough :/

HelloUsername 10mo ago
> dumped a glass of water all over my MBP I believe that's how the designers at Apple came up with Liquid Glass
dghost-dev 10mo ago
Liquid Glass is not that bad lol.
- stefanfisk 10mo ago
  Neither is an M4 Pro.
coldpie 10mo ago
If it helps, I've been using XFCE since 2007 and it's remained functionally identical for all of those almost 20 years. It just works, it improves a tiny bit with each major upgrade, and they don't rearrange everything every couple years for the sake of justifying a salary. Maybe it's a good opportunity to consider whether you actually have to keep running on Apple's treadmill.
- baq 10mo ago
  I’d love an XFCE (or even gnome tbh) environment on a properly built laptop, unfortunately only Apple is able to build something that works in all areas that matter: sleeps when lid closed, wakes when lid opens, touchpad and display don’t suck.
  - coldpie 10mo ago
    FWIW that all worked out of the box for me on my Intel Framework. But yes, it's fair to say there are tradeoffs for each solution. Maybe Apple's cons are getting big enough these days. Worth considering.
  - gray_-_wolf 10mo ago
    > all areas that matter: sleeps when lid closed, wakes when lid opens, touchpad and display don’t suck. All of these seem to be fine on my thinkpad (true, I probably have somewhat lower standards for passable display). Battery life sucks a bit, what I can usually fine outlet somewhat to plug into.
  - somebehemoth 10mo ago
    I have an oled thinkpad running fedora that has never had a sleep issue. Excellent touchpad as well. Thinkpad X1 Carbon.
    - tasuki 10mo ago
      Which version? I have a X1 Carbon from, uhh, 2017? It supports S3 sleep. I'd think about an upgrade, if only I wasn't worried about sleep issues. I run Debian if that makes any difference. Actually now that I think about it, my visceral reaction is one of dread: a feeling the trouble will be more than the benefit of a new computer.
    - stefanfisk 10mo ago
      For me the touchpad experience is not just about the hardware. I got a Magic Trackpad for my Linux desktop hoping that it would at least be somewhat comparable to my MacBook. But scrolling and gestures are nowhere near as consistent and fluid as in macOS since the software support just isn't there. As a fairly typical example, getting Firefox on Linux to actually scroll smoothly takes googling and fiddling with settings. Gesture support is hit or miss. On macOS, Firefox behaves just like any other native app in this regard.
      - bigyabai 10mo ago
        My Magic Trackpad feels more consistent on Linux, Force Touch notwithstanding.
      - encom 10mo ago
        Firefox on Fedora on X1 Carbon and scrolling just works. Maybe it was different in the past.
        stefanfisk 10mo ago
        This was a few weeks ago. IIRC, the issue with Firefox was not that it didn't scroll but that the scrolling wasn't inertial unless you changed some settings.
        10mo ago
  - cosmic_cheese 10mo ago
    > unfortunately only Apple is able to build something that works in all areas that matter: sleeps when lid closed, wakes when lid opens, touchpad and display don’t suck In my case I'd add: - Chassis that doesn't flex like crazy - Battery life good enough that I typically don't need to think about AC outlet accessibility - Can sit in standby for upwards of a week without battery drain forcing it to shut down - Is inaudible except when maxing out CPU or GPU for several minutes - Has a screen panel with a resolution that's either 1x or 2x UI scaling native The number of laptops in the market that check these boxes is disappointingly tiny.
  - zingar 10mo ago
    I don’t see anyone in these replies really addressing the touchpad. Would love to hear from people who have used macbooks if they have found a Linux machine that matches the Apple trackpad. “Never tried a MacBook, my Linux machine trackpad always worked perfectly” is the usual response I get when I press for a response… but without trying Apple (on this one thing) you’ll never understand until you’ve experienced the downgrade.
    - coldpie 10mo ago
      > but without trying Apple (on this one thing) you’ll never understand until you’ve experienced the downgrade. I don't doubt you find something special about the macOS trackpad experience, but I've used a Mac every day at work for 3 years and I genuinely don't feel any more or less fond of its trackpad than I do the one on my Framework laptop running Linux. They're both trackpads that do trackpad things. Shrug.
      - zingar 10mo ago
        Thank you, this is the sort of response I need to take framework seriously. I asked because had genuinely never found anyone who could make an honest comparison (I used Linux in pre macOS days but that was a decade ago).
      - zingar 10mo ago
        Do you use a mouse most of the time? That’s the other variable I wonder about. When I used Linux I found it normal to plug in a mouse whenever possible, but when I switched to macOS and got used to the trackpad I stopped using a mouse or keyboard, even if I’m plugged into a bigger screen.
        coldpie 10mo ago
        On my Framework, I only use the trackpad, don't have a mouse for it. My work mac laptop lives on a desk so I mostly use a mouse for it, but also use the trackpad plenty when I head to a conference room for meetings etc. One thing you might've missed in the last decade, is Linux relatively recently gained a new click mode that works like macOS does. One finger left click, two finger right click, two finger scrolling, etc. Since it's Linux, it is very configurable and may not be enabled by default depending on your distro. https://wayland.freedesktop.org/libinput/doc/latest/clickpad-softbuttons.html#clickfinger-behavior https://wayland.freedesktop.org/libinput/doc/latest/clickpad... https://smarttech101.com/libinput-fix-your-linux-touchpad-using-libinput https://smarttech101.com/libinput-fix-your-linux-touchpad-us... However, more user friendly distros will hopefully(!) do that configuration for you or present a nice UI to enable it.
- stefanfisk 10mo ago
  I’ve combined my MacBook with a Linux desktop for about five years now. Linux has its pros as a developer, but IMHO daily driving it is like walking around with pebbles in my shoes. Something as basic as scrolling feels slightly inconsistent in just about every app and keybindings are all over the place. There’s always the allure of getting the config ”just right” but after a while I swear I start seeing Sisyphus’ reflection in my screen.
  - coldpie 10mo ago
    What DE are you using? Some of the higher profile ones (Gnome, KDE) try to be all smooth and polished and feature-full and in my opinion just introduce more complications and bugs that get in the way of just being a good desktop. I like XFCE because it's just a really good, simple window manager, desktop, and set of basic utilities. Other than that it just gets out of your way and doesn't make you relearn how to do things every few years. It's like if the Win98 desktop got another 30 years of gentle refinement.
    - stefanfisk 10mo ago
      I’ve tried XFCE, i3, Pop Shell and plain Gnome. But it doesn’t really matter, since the DE doesn’t determine how individual apps behave. My baseline is OSX from decade ago OSX with native apps where everyone was following the Apple HIG so consistently that using a Java app felt like waking up in the twilight zone. macOS these days have fallen quite a bit from its UX glory days but there’s still quite a bit to go before it hits the level of Ubuntu or Windows. On Linux it feels to me like every app exists in its own parallell dimension where you never know if even the basic laws of physics still apply.
      - coldpie 10mo ago
        Fair. I guess I haven't had that experience, but so much stuff is web-based these days that probably 90% of my computing time is just spent in a browser and the rest in just a handful of applications that I know well.
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dpedu 10mo ago
There could be hope for it, but it might be too late now. I dumped tea on my M1 Macbook air earlier this year. I managed to save it - sort of. I had to replace the battery. The screen was working but also had liquid damage so I replaced it as well. Immediately after spilling tea on it I shut it off, took off the bottom plate, rinsed it with water, and rinsed it again with isopropyl alcohol. I think I waved a heat gun over it for a bit and then left it in front of a fan. This was about 8 months ago and it still works! The only lingering problem is that when caps lock is off, the light on the key is slightly illuminated. Weird, but I can tolerate that!
- stefanfisk 10mo ago
  ”What doesn’t kill your only cripples you for life” best describes its state. I did my best to dry it up ASAP but when I flipped it over water started pouring out of the rear fan grid… TouchID no longer works, Bluetooth reception is shit and various keys feel sticky/crunchy. I’d keep it as-is if it wasn’t my main work machine.
RickyLahey 10mo ago
are macs m5 out? can you wait that long?
- stefanfisk 10mo ago
  The base M5 is available for MBP 14”. The M5 SSD is almost 2x as fast and single core performance is 10+ % better. The issue is that they cannot be downgraded to Sequoia. So one has to decide on what’s preferable - a step up for HW but a step down for OS or vice versa? One would hope that Tahoe improves with time but considering the trajectory of both macOS and iOS I fear that it will take years to resolve the UX and bug issues if it ever happens.
  - RickyLahey 9mo ago
    wow thanks i somehow missed that. I like to disable SIP and gut my Mac OS but i know that's not a very safe choice

HelloUsername 10mo ago

> dumped a glass of water all over my MBP I believe that's how the designers at Apple came up with Liquid Glass

dghost-dev 10mo ago

Liquid Glass is not that bad lol.

stefanfisk 10mo ago
Neither is an M4 Pro.

coldpie 10mo ago

If it helps, I've been using XFCE since 2007 and it's remained functionally identical for all of those almost 20 years. It just works, it improves a tiny bit with each major upgrade, and they don't rearrange everything every couple years for the sake of justifying a salary. Maybe it's a good opportunity to consider whether you actually have to keep running on Apple's treadmill.

baq 10mo ago
I’d love an XFCE (or even gnome tbh) environment on a properly built laptop, unfortunately only Apple is able to build something that works in all areas that matter: sleeps when lid closed, wakes when lid opens, touchpad and display don’t suck.
- coldpie 10mo ago
  FWIW that all worked out of the box for me on my Intel Framework. But yes, it's fair to say there are tradeoffs for each solution. Maybe Apple's cons are getting big enough these days. Worth considering.
- gray_-_wolf 10mo ago
  > all areas that matter: sleeps when lid closed, wakes when lid opens, touchpad and display don’t suck. All of these seem to be fine on my thinkpad (true, I probably have somewhat lower standards for passable display). Battery life sucks a bit, what I can usually fine outlet somewhat to plug into.
- somebehemoth 10mo ago
  I have an oled thinkpad running fedora that has never had a sleep issue. Excellent touchpad as well. Thinkpad X1 Carbon.
  - tasuki 10mo ago
    Which version? I have a X1 Carbon from, uhh, 2017? It supports S3 sleep. I'd think about an upgrade, if only I wasn't worried about sleep issues. I run Debian if that makes any difference. Actually now that I think about it, my visceral reaction is one of dread: a feeling the trouble will be more than the benefit of a new computer.
  - stefanfisk 10mo ago
    For me the touchpad experience is not just about the hardware. I got a Magic Trackpad for my Linux desktop hoping that it would at least be somewhat comparable to my MacBook. But scrolling and gestures are nowhere near as consistent and fluid as in macOS since the software support just isn't there. As a fairly typical example, getting Firefox on Linux to actually scroll smoothly takes googling and fiddling with settings. Gesture support is hit or miss. On macOS, Firefox behaves just like any other native app in this regard.
    - bigyabai 10mo ago
      My Magic Trackpad feels more consistent on Linux, Force Touch notwithstanding.
    - encom 10mo ago
      Firefox on Fedora on X1 Carbon and scrolling just works. Maybe it was different in the past.
      - stefanfisk 10mo ago
        This was a few weeks ago. IIRC, the issue with Firefox was not that it didn't scroll but that the scrolling wasn't inertial unless you changed some settings.
      - 10mo ago
- cosmic_cheese 10mo ago
  > unfortunately only Apple is able to build something that works in all areas that matter: sleeps when lid closed, wakes when lid opens, touchpad and display don’t suck In my case I'd add: - Chassis that doesn't flex like crazy - Battery life good enough that I typically don't need to think about AC outlet accessibility - Can sit in standby for upwards of a week without battery drain forcing it to shut down - Is inaudible except when maxing out CPU or GPU for several minutes - Has a screen panel with a resolution that's either 1x or 2x UI scaling native The number of laptops in the market that check these boxes is disappointingly tiny.
- zingar 10mo ago
  I don’t see anyone in these replies really addressing the touchpad. Would love to hear from people who have used macbooks if they have found a Linux machine that matches the Apple trackpad. “Never tried a MacBook, my Linux machine trackpad always worked perfectly” is the usual response I get when I press for a response… but without trying Apple (on this one thing) you’ll never understand until you’ve experienced the downgrade.
  - coldpie 10mo ago
    > but without trying Apple (on this one thing) you’ll never understand until you’ve experienced the downgrade. I don't doubt you find something special about the macOS trackpad experience, but I've used a Mac every day at work for 3 years and I genuinely don't feel any more or less fond of its trackpad than I do the one on my Framework laptop running Linux. They're both trackpads that do trackpad things. Shrug.
    - zingar 10mo ago
      Thank you, this is the sort of response I need to take framework seriously. I asked because had genuinely never found anyone who could make an honest comparison (I used Linux in pre macOS days but that was a decade ago).
    - zingar 10mo ago
      Do you use a mouse most of the time? That’s the other variable I wonder about. When I used Linux I found it normal to plug in a mouse whenever possible, but when I switched to macOS and got used to the trackpad I stopped using a mouse or keyboard, even if I’m plugged into a bigger screen.
      - coldpie 10mo ago
        On my Framework, I only use the trackpad, don't have a mouse for it. My work mac laptop lives on a desk so I mostly use a mouse for it, but also use the trackpad plenty when I head to a conference room for meetings etc. One thing you might've missed in the last decade, is Linux relatively recently gained a new click mode that works like macOS does. One finger left click, two finger right click, two finger scrolling, etc. Since it's Linux, it is very configurable and may not be enabled by default depending on your distro. https://wayland.freedesktop.org/libinput/doc/latest/clickpad-softbuttons.html#clickfinger-behavior https://wayland.freedesktop.org/libinput/doc/latest/clickpad... https://smarttech101.com/libinput-fix-your-linux-touchpad-using-libinput https://smarttech101.com/libinput-fix-your-linux-touchpad-us... However, more user friendly distros will hopefully(!) do that configuration for you or present a nice UI to enable it.
stefanfisk 10mo ago
I’ve combined my MacBook with a Linux desktop for about five years now. Linux has its pros as a developer, but IMHO daily driving it is like walking around with pebbles in my shoes. Something as basic as scrolling feels slightly inconsistent in just about every app and keybindings are all over the place. There’s always the allure of getting the config ”just right” but after a while I swear I start seeing Sisyphus’ reflection in my screen.
- coldpie 10mo ago
  What DE are you using? Some of the higher profile ones (Gnome, KDE) try to be all smooth and polished and feature-full and in my opinion just introduce more complications and bugs that get in the way of just being a good desktop. I like XFCE because it's just a really good, simple window manager, desktop, and set of basic utilities. Other than that it just gets out of your way and doesn't make you relearn how to do things every few years. It's like if the Win98 desktop got another 30 years of gentle refinement.
  - stefanfisk 10mo ago
    I’ve tried XFCE, i3, Pop Shell and plain Gnome. But it doesn’t really matter, since the DE doesn’t determine how individual apps behave. My baseline is OSX from decade ago OSX with native apps where everyone was following the Apple HIG so consistently that using a Java app felt like waking up in the twilight zone. macOS these days have fallen quite a bit from its UX glory days but there’s still quite a bit to go before it hits the level of Ubuntu or Windows. On Linux it feels to me like every app exists in its own parallell dimension where you never know if even the basic laws of physics still apply.
    - coldpie 10mo ago
      Fair. I guess I haven't had that experience, but so much stuff is web-based these days that probably 90% of my computing time is just spent in a browser and the rest in just a handful of applications that I know well.

deleted 10mo ago

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deleted 10mo ago

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dpedu 10mo ago

There could be hope for it, but it might be too late now. I dumped tea on my M1 Macbook air earlier this year. I managed to save it - sort of. I had to replace the battery. The screen was working but also had liquid damage so I replaced it as well. Immediately after spilling tea on it I shut it off, took off the bottom plate, rinsed it with water, and rinsed it again with isopropyl alcohol. I think I waved a heat gun over it for a bit and then left it in front of a fan. This was about 8 months ago and it still works! The only lingering problem is that when caps lock is off, the light on the key is slightly illuminated. Weird, but I can tolerate that!

stefanfisk 10mo ago
”What doesn’t kill your only cripples you for life” best describes its state. I did my best to dry it up ASAP but when I flipped it over water started pouring out of the rear fan grid… TouchID no longer works, Bluetooth reception is shit and various keys feel sticky/crunchy. I’d keep it as-is if it wasn’t my main work machine.

RickyLahey 10mo ago

are macs m5 out? can you wait that long?

stefanfisk 10mo ago
The base M5 is available for MBP 14”. The M5 SSD is almost 2x as fast and single core performance is 10+ % better. The issue is that they cannot be downgraded to Sequoia. So one has to decide on what’s preferable - a step up for HW but a step down for OS or vice versa? One would hope that Tahoe improves with time but considering the trajectory of both macOS and iOS I fear that it will take years to resolve the UX and bug issues if it ever happens.
- RickyLahey 9mo ago
  wow thanks i somehow missed that. I like to disable SIP and gut my Mac OS but i know that's not a very safe choice