4 ms·

They're not in the core language group... Do these people have influence in the stdlib, compiler, prominent libraries? Kernel community? Why judge the whole Ru

by NewJazz 10mo ago

They're not in the core language group... Do these people have influence in the stdlib, compiler, prominent libraries? Kernel community? Why judge the whole Rust community for the choices made by one minor subgroup?

testdelacc1 10mo ago
It’s a common HN trope to generalise a “community” based on a handful of people or even just one person. “See this is why I dislike the xyz community”, says a person justifying their confirmation bias. Perhaps the world is too complex without breaking it down into in-groups and out-groups, with any out-groups supposedly being completely homogenous. Pretty intellectually lazy but fairly common on HN, to the point where it’s not even worth calling out.
- johnisgood 10mo ago
  I mean, I was going to reply "take a wild guess" to him, but your message is correct, too. (I may come across as an Ada zealot myself.)
  - nickpsecurity 10mo ago
    Quick, random question. I heard way back that SPARK was getting safe pointers in response to Rust's borrow checker. Has full Ada solved their unsafe de-allocation problem in a way that's comparable to the borrow checker's guarantees?
    - johnisgood 10mo ago
      Yes, it was introduced many years ago and has been in production for quite some time now. You can completely eliminate use-after-free, double-free, dangling pointers, memory leaks, and null dereferences. You should take another look, lots have changed in this scene.
- jacquesm 10mo ago
  You may be correct but pjmlp is not one of those and if you had been here long enough you would have known that. You're the one creating an in-group here and putting yourself on the 'good' side. Perhaps that is too complex for you but I think it is intellectually lazy not to get who you're referring to before making comments such as these. Note that your strawman "See this is why I dislike the xyz community" wasn't part of this thread at all.
  - pjmlp 10mo ago
    A community is made by all of its participants. One could also say some in the C or C++ communities actually care about security, thus no need for Rust or alike, yet no one is paying attention to those small groups in the corner. A village is judged by its population actions, and even the black sheeps count to its overall image from outsiders.
    - jacquesm 10mo ago
      Indeed. If there is one person here that keeps their footing in language debates it is you (and I'm always blown away with how many details you have at instant recall that I never realized were there). So thank you for the lessons over the years, it has helped me evaluate my choices better. As for that sentence: I think Rust has its place, I do not agree at all with their 'rewrite' mantra because there are a ton of risks associated with rewrites that have nothing to do in what language the code is written in, just that it is a rewrite. I think the Rust folks should go all-in on Redox and fix their tool optimization issues. And do one thing and do that well rather than to be the next Swiss army knife of programming. And I also think that the C and C++ folks can do a lot better still. Filip is doing something interesting I think and if there a practical solution to the C heritage I think it lies more in his direction than in rewriting billions of lines of battle tested code. Performance isn't nearly as important as it used to be. Another thing that I think would be beneficial would be to take as many device drivers out of the linux kernel as possible and run them as userspace processes. Anyway, belated Merry Christmas to you and a pre-emptive happy 2026!
      - 10mo ago
deleted 10mo ago
[deleted]
pjmlp 10mo ago
Because the actions of everyone count to the wide perception of a community from the outside. Rust Striking Force meme exists for a reason, their actions are also not supported by the core team.
- monocasa 10mo ago
  Do they interact at all with the main rust community? It seems a little disingenuous to describe "community" as including people who haven't even attempted to interact with anyone in the community other than forking their code.
- ksec 10mo ago
  >Rust Striking Force meme exists for a reason, their actions are also not supported by the core team. Many of the core team and by large its community witness RESF in action for long before sending in a few words isn't exactly not supported in my book. But then again I understand every PL needs a lot of push and marketing. It just went way too far in one direction.
pseudony 10mo ago
This has been covered ad nauseam, but since rust advocacy has waded into enough discussions about code in other languages to lecture people on performance and safety, it has naturally pushed some to find a bit of satisfaction in commenting on shortcomings in rust projects. And this is very much also something which is helped along by the community’s defining voices.

by NewJazz 10mo ago

testdelacc1 10mo ago

It’s a common HN trope to generalise a “community” based on a handful of people or even just one person. “See this is why I dislike the xyz community”, says a person justifying their confirmation bias. Perhaps the world is too complex without breaking it down into in-groups and out-groups, with any out-groups supposedly being completely homogenous. Pretty intellectually lazy but fairly common on HN, to the point where it’s not even worth calling out.

johnisgood 10mo ago
I mean, I was going to reply "take a wild guess" to him, but your message is correct, too. (I may come across as an Ada zealot myself.)
- nickpsecurity 10mo ago
  Quick, random question. I heard way back that SPARK was getting safe pointers in response to Rust's borrow checker. Has full Ada solved their unsafe de-allocation problem in a way that's comparable to the borrow checker's guarantees?
  - johnisgood 10mo ago
    Yes, it was introduced many years ago and has been in production for quite some time now. You can completely eliminate use-after-free, double-free, dangling pointers, memory leaks, and null dereferences. You should take another look, lots have changed in this scene.
jacquesm 10mo ago
You may be correct but pjmlp is not one of those and if you had been here long enough you would have known that. You're the one creating an in-group here and putting yourself on the 'good' side. Perhaps that is too complex for you but I think it is intellectually lazy not to get who you're referring to before making comments such as these. Note that your strawman "See this is why I dislike the xyz community" wasn't part of this thread at all.
- pjmlp 10mo ago
  A community is made by all of its participants. One could also say some in the C or C++ communities actually care about security, thus no need for Rust or alike, yet no one is paying attention to those small groups in the corner. A village is judged by its population actions, and even the black sheeps count to its overall image from outsiders.
  - jacquesm 10mo ago
    Indeed. If there is one person here that keeps their footing in language debates it is you (and I'm always blown away with how many details you have at instant recall that I never realized were there). So thank you for the lessons over the years, it has helped me evaluate my choices better. As for that sentence: I think Rust has its place, I do not agree at all with their 'rewrite' mantra because there are a ton of risks associated with rewrites that have nothing to do in what language the code is written in, just that it is a rewrite. I think the Rust folks should go all-in on Redox and fix their tool optimization issues. And do one thing and do that well rather than to be the next Swiss army knife of programming. And I also think that the C and C++ folks can do a lot better still. Filip is doing something interesting I think and if there a practical solution to the C heritage I think it lies more in his direction than in rewriting billions of lines of battle tested code. Performance isn't nearly as important as it used to be. Another thing that I think would be beneficial would be to take as many device drivers out of the linux kernel as possible and run them as userspace processes. Anyway, belated Merry Christmas to you and a pre-emptive happy 2026!
    - 10mo ago

deleted 10mo ago

[deleted]

pjmlp 10mo ago

Because the actions of everyone count to the wide perception of a community from the outside. Rust Striking Force meme exists for a reason, their actions are also not supported by the core team.

monocasa 10mo ago
Do they interact at all with the main rust community? It seems a little disingenuous to describe "community" as including people who haven't even attempted to interact with anyone in the community other than forking their code.
ksec 10mo ago
>Rust Striking Force meme exists for a reason, their actions are also not supported by the core team. Many of the core team and by large its community witness RESF in action for long before sending in a few words isn't exactly not supported in my book. But then again I understand every PL needs a lot of push and marketing. It just went way too far in one direction.

pseudony 10mo ago

This has been covered ad nauseam, but since rust advocacy has waded into enough discussions about code in other languages to lecture people on performance and safety, it has naturally pushed some to find a bit of satisfaction in commenting on shortcomings in rust projects. And this is very much also something which is helped along by the community’s defining voices.