6 ms·

Here's another controversial take: as long as healthcare is tied to employment, companies shouldn't be allowed to fire someone except for actual negligence / ma

Here's another controversial take: as long as healthcare is tied to employment, companies shouldn't be allowed to fire someone except for actual negligence / malice. If they suck at their job, find them another one at the company -- there has to be something they can do in a company of 5k employees.

bdangubic 10mo ago
this is too radical even for china or like good ol USSR… damn dude :)
- seba_dos1 10mo ago
  "as long as healthcare is tied to employment" makes it barely radical at all.
  - bdangubic 10mo ago
    so you have guaranteed employment for life with the same company? that is about as radical as it gets. this would shoot the unemployment through the roof if I, as a business owner, am unable to fire anyone that I hire! health insurance or not, that is to radical for even the most "social" country in existence (or that previously existed)
    - seba_dos1 10mo ago
      If you're looking for reading comprehension lessons, I don't provide such services.
      - bdangubic 10mo ago
        ugh that is too bad, Sundays are always good for learning new things
    - alexgieg 10mo ago
      You're uninformed. France has that, and it doesn't result in excessive unemployment; in fact, the unemployment rates in France and in the US are practically the same, respectively 7.5% vs. 7.8%. What changes between the countries is the hiring procedure. US and UK companies mostly use a "hire anyone, keep the slightly useful ones for as long as they seem slightly useful, fire everyone else, fire them too, wash, rinse, repeat" narcissistic-sociopathic trial-and-error pseudo-method that's just guesswork dressed up as "choice". French companies, and those in countries with similar preferences, take their time to very seriously vet the people they're hiring with a focus on the long term, and do it right from the start, following scientific hiring methodologies that leave little to no space for guesswork and gut feelings. The result for the company is the same: the proper employee, at the proper position, doing the proper job the company needs. The result for the employee is that the first "method", being as it is narcissistic-sociopathic, promotes unnecessary human suffering with zero actual benefit to anyone, whereas the second promotes well-being, satisfaction, and good work-life balance. And, again, unemployment rates don't vary between them. Now, if you believe your company would do badly under this system, maybe it would indeed. Which only goes to show you don't know how to hire properly. Start hiring better, and it'd make zero difference for you whether you're in a system or the other. In fact, start hiring better, and you may even move ahead compared to your narcissistic-sociopathic competitors, since then they will be the ones going with simple trial-and-error, while you will get the right employees from the start, and without regrets.
      - bdangubic 10mo ago
        under what law/statute/etc... in France is forbidden to fire an employee? a link to this law for my education would be greatly appreciated...
        shagie 10mo ago
        This gets into "my French is rusty... and legal French is non-existent". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dismissal_(employment)_in_France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dismissal_(employment)_in_Fran... https://www.rippling.com/blog/termination-in-france https://www.rippling.com/blog/termination-in-france In particular the parts: > French laws don’t recognize at-will employment. In France, you can’t simply dismiss an employee without reason. In fact, the French labor code makes it extremely clear that it considers termination to be an absolute last resort, especially in cases of voluntary or involuntary personal grounds for dismissal. Instead, it encourages employers to try to find other ways to resolve the problem. For example, let’s say the employee in question is having serious interpersonal issues with their manager or a coworker. You can only dismiss them after you’ve tried everything else, such as holding a meeting in which you talk to the two of them and try to find a solution, or by putting them on different projects so they don’t have to work together directly. If the company is putting technological changes in place to increase its competitiveness, before you can start the dismissal procedure, you must demonstrate you tried another course of action, such as redeployment or employee training. > Everything must be documented. This is extremely important: You must document evidence of all events and/or incidents that led to the dismissal of the employee, even if the reasons have nothing to do with their conduct specifically. You’ll use this evidence both during the interview when you’re telling the employee why they’re being dismissed and should also keep it in case the employee decides to bring a lawsuit against your company. --- If someone is having difficulty with their job, you first provide them training before you can fire them. From what I understand, it has to be a "we tried everything for the past year, here's all the documentation and they're still unable to do the basic requirements for the position.
arielcostas 10mo ago
On the other hand, it may end up the other way: pressure you or bully you into quitting yourself. Here in Spain it happens sometimes: firing you is expensive and they don't want you around for whatever issue, so they'll try to find any justification to fire you, or just pressure you in some way on another to make you miserable enough to quit. No doubt that would happen in the US.
- shagie 10mo ago
  In the United States, that's known as constructive dismissal or discharge. https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/eta/warn/glossary.asp?p=constructive%20discharge https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/eta/warn/glossary.asp?p=constr... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_dismissal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_dismissal This can easily backfire on the employer with discrimination, hostile workplace, and a variation on wrongful dismissal lawsuits. From Wikipedia: From a legal standpoint, it occurs when an employee is forced to resign because of intolerable working conditions which violate employment legislation, such as: Family and Medical Leave Act of 1993 (FMLA) Equal Pay Act of 1963 (EPA) Change in schedules in order to force employee to quit (title 12) Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 (ADA) Genetic Information Nondiscrimination Act of 2008 (GINA) Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967 (ADEA) Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (Title VII) It would take significant change to multiple parts of federal legislation and that in many states with additional worker protection laws. For example, in California ... https://workplacerightslaw.com/library/retaliation/constructive-discharge-california-quitting-fired https://workplacerightslaw.com/library/retaliation/construct... To succeed on a claim for constructive discharge, you must be able to prove at least three elements: Your employer was trying to force you to resign by intentionally and knowingly creating an employment environment that was intolerable and aggravated; This unbearable, hostile workplace gave you no choice but to resign; and, Your employer was motivated to get rid of you for illegal, retaliatory or discriminatory reasons.
knowitnone3 10mo ago
so you'll take janitorial after your SWE job? if yes, the go for it but what happens you become disgruntled because you're no longer getting paid the same? You think it wise to keep a disgruntled employee?
- cindyllm 10mo ago
  [dead]

bdangubic 10mo ago

this is too radical even for china or like good ol USSR… damn dude :)

seba_dos1 10mo ago
"as long as healthcare is tied to employment" makes it barely radical at all.
- bdangubic 10mo ago
  so you have guaranteed employment for life with the same company? that is about as radical as it gets. this would shoot the unemployment through the roof if I, as a business owner, am unable to fire anyone that I hire! health insurance or not, that is to radical for even the most "social" country in existence (or that previously existed)
  - seba_dos1 10mo ago
    If you're looking for reading comprehension lessons, I don't provide such services.
    - bdangubic 10mo ago
      ugh that is too bad, Sundays are always good for learning new things
  - alexgieg 10mo ago
    You're uninformed. France has that, and it doesn't result in excessive unemployment; in fact, the unemployment rates in France and in the US are practically the same, respectively 7.5% vs. 7.8%. What changes between the countries is the hiring procedure. US and UK companies mostly use a "hire anyone, keep the slightly useful ones for as long as they seem slightly useful, fire everyone else, fire them too, wash, rinse, repeat" narcissistic-sociopathic trial-and-error pseudo-method that's just guesswork dressed up as "choice". French companies, and those in countries with similar preferences, take their time to very seriously vet the people they're hiring with a focus on the long term, and do it right from the start, following scientific hiring methodologies that leave little to no space for guesswork and gut feelings. The result for the company is the same: the proper employee, at the proper position, doing the proper job the company needs. The result for the employee is that the first "method", being as it is narcissistic-sociopathic, promotes unnecessary human suffering with zero actual benefit to anyone, whereas the second promotes well-being, satisfaction, and good work-life balance. And, again, unemployment rates don't vary between them. Now, if you believe your company would do badly under this system, maybe it would indeed. Which only goes to show you don't know how to hire properly. Start hiring better, and it'd make zero difference for you whether you're in a system or the other. In fact, start hiring better, and you may even move ahead compared to your narcissistic-sociopathic competitors, since then they will be the ones going with simple trial-and-error, while you will get the right employees from the start, and without regrets.
    - bdangubic 10mo ago
      under what law/statute/etc... in France is forbidden to fire an employee? a link to this law for my education would be greatly appreciated...
      - shagie 10mo ago
        This gets into "my French is rusty... and legal French is non-existent". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dismissal_(employment)_in_France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dismissal_(employment)_in_Fran... https://www.rippling.com/blog/termination-in-france https://www.rippling.com/blog/termination-in-france In particular the parts: > French laws don’t recognize at-will employment. In France, you can’t simply dismiss an employee without reason. In fact, the French labor code makes it extremely clear that it considers termination to be an absolute last resort, especially in cases of voluntary or involuntary personal grounds for dismissal. Instead, it encourages employers to try to find other ways to resolve the problem. For example, let’s say the employee in question is having serious interpersonal issues with their manager or a coworker. You can only dismiss them after you’ve tried everything else, such as holding a meeting in which you talk to the two of them and try to find a solution, or by putting them on different projects so they don’t have to work together directly. If the company is putting technological changes in place to increase its competitiveness, before you can start the dismissal procedure, you must demonstrate you tried another course of action, such as redeployment or employee training. > Everything must be documented. This is extremely important: You must document evidence of all events and/or incidents that led to the dismissal of the employee, even if the reasons have nothing to do with their conduct specifically. You’ll use this evidence both during the interview when you’re telling the employee why they’re being dismissed and should also keep it in case the employee decides to bring a lawsuit against your company. --- If someone is having difficulty with their job, you first provide them training before you can fire them. From what I understand, it has to be a "we tried everything for the past year, here's all the documentation and they're still unable to do the basic requirements for the position.

arielcostas 10mo ago

On the other hand, it may end up the other way: pressure you or bully you into quitting yourself. Here in Spain it happens sometimes: firing you is expensive and they don't want you around for whatever issue, so they'll try to find any justification to fire you, or just pressure you in some way on another to make you miserable enough to quit. No doubt that would happen in the US.

shagie 10mo ago
In the United States, that's known as constructive dismissal or discharge. https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/eta/warn/glossary.asp?p=constructive%20discharge https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/eta/warn/glossary.asp?p=constr... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_dismissal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_dismissal This can easily backfire on the employer with discrimination, hostile workplace, and a variation on wrongful dismissal lawsuits. From Wikipedia: From a legal standpoint, it occurs when an employee is forced to resign because of intolerable working conditions which violate employment legislation, such as: Family and Medical Leave Act of 1993 (FMLA) Equal Pay Act of 1963 (EPA) Change in schedules in order to force employee to quit (title 12) Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 (ADA) Genetic Information Nondiscrimination Act of 2008 (GINA) Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967 (ADEA) Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (Title VII) It would take significant change to multiple parts of federal legislation and that in many states with additional worker protection laws. For example, in California ... https://workplacerightslaw.com/library/retaliation/constructive-discharge-california-quitting-fired https://workplacerightslaw.com/library/retaliation/construct... To succeed on a claim for constructive discharge, you must be able to prove at least three elements: Your employer was trying to force you to resign by intentionally and knowingly creating an employment environment that was intolerable and aggravated; This unbearable, hostile workplace gave you no choice but to resign; and, Your employer was motivated to get rid of you for illegal, retaliatory or discriminatory reasons.

knowitnone3 10mo ago

so you'll take janitorial after your SWE job? if yes, the go for it but what happens you become disgruntled because you're no longer getting paid the same? You think it wise to keep a disgruntled employee?

cindyllm 10mo ago
[dead]