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The EV tax applies to people who a) casue a disproportionate amount of wear & tear on the roads vs ICE vehicles and b) are generally higher income in the state.
by caseysoftware 9mo ago
The EV tax applies to people who a) casue a disproportionate amount of wear & tear on the roads vs ICE vehicles and b) are generally higher income in the state.
When you look at taxation from a "charge the people who use it" or the "the rich should pay more" perspective, this appears to address both.
Is the problem simply that you want to pay less taxes?
- vel0city 9mo agoNo, I just want to pay a fair amount of taxes. Honestly the gas taxes should be increased or we should move to a tax structure where it's mileage, weight, and emissions based. Paying 3x the same taxes while having less externalities isn't fair.
- caseysoftware 9mo agoAs I've cited elsewhere on this thread: > With that information, the British newspaper calculated that BEVs [battery electric vehicles] could expose roads to 2.24 times more damage than gas cars. Ref: https://www.autoevolution.com/news/bevs-could-also-damage-roads-way-more-than-ice-cars-due-to-weight-217255.html https://www.autoevolution.com/news/bevs-could-also-damage-ro... If that's true, then 12-15k miles in an EV would be equivalent to 27-33k miles in a gas car in the externalities of road wear & tear.. so "taxes equivalent to 35k miles" is at most 25% higher in a "damage per mile equivalent" but could be as little as 6% using the averages. If your actual mileage is over 15625/year, then you're paying less than the equivalent. What's your annual mileage?
- vel0city 9mo ago27 isn't 35 no matter how many times you say it is. > If your actual mileage is over 15625/year, then you're paying less than the equivalent. The average is less than that by a decent bit, so more than half of US cars are paying more even with your unproven, contorted math based on some estimates done once in the 70s and never really looked into closely again. It's also assuming the difference in weight. The closest hybrid I would have bought instead is only like 100kg lighter than my EV. And it gets like 40mpg, better than 35mpg. It would also mean semi trucks should pay like 20,000x more in registration fees. Does this make sense? > What's your annual mileage? Less than 15k on that car (like most people), so even with your assumed math it's overpaying.
- pclmulqdq 9mo agoSemi trucks pay huge amounts in gas taxes because they guzzle gas like nobody's business. It's only the EVs that aren't paying for their road wear in gas taxes.
- vel0city 9mo ago20,000x more in taxes?
- turkeyboi 9mo agoRealistically speaking, they probably do. Do you know how much fuel they use and miles they drive per year?
- deleted 9mo ago[deleted]
- vel0city 9mo agoAverage class 8 truck (>33,000lbs) burns under 11,000GGEa year, ratio is 1GGE=1.13gal of diesel. So somewhere under 12,500gal of diesel on average, but we'll use that to lean even more in the truck's favor. https://afdc.energy.gov/data/10308 https://afdc.energy.gov/data/10308 Are you suggesting the average car burns less than 1 gallon of gas a year? A 20mpg car driving 12,500mi (the average ICE in the US) would use 625gal of gas. So more like 20x, maybe 40x if the per gallon tax of diesel is double. Pretty dang far off from 20,000x. And they're doing way more miles while being massively heavier, meaning incredibly more harm on the road than whatever EV you're thinking.
- dredmorbius 9mo agoGGE: Gasoline gallon equivalent <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent> (Most tractor-trailor rigs burn diesel rather than petrol.)
- loeg 9mo agoYou keep repeating it, but it's reductive at best and incorrect as a general assumption.
- caseysoftware 9mo agoIs there another model you'd recommend to estimate/compare road wear and tear?
- loeg 9mo ago1:1 is at least as good a default assumption.
- caseysoftware 9mo agoBased on numerous studies, we already know it's not 1:1 so why bother starting with a default assumption that we know is wrong? Do you have an alternative analysis? I'd love to check it out.
- vel0city 9mo ago> Based on numerous studies I do agree the relationship probably isn't linear, but the fourth power rule doesn't necessarily have numerous studies confirming it. It was a small collection of studies on road wear the US highway administration did in the 1950s and pretty much everyone has just gone with that. Other studies have pointed to it being less than previously thought. https://discovery.ntroknowledge.com.au/discovery/fulldisplay?context=L&vid=61NTRO_INST:NTRO_ARRB&tab=ARRB&docid=alma9958802309464 https://discovery.ntroknowledge.com.au/discovery/fulldisplay... Throwing even more weight against your 12,000mi is really 35,000mi equivalence.
- deleted 9mo ago[deleted]
- caseysoftware 9mo agoThanks for the insight but my claim was never "12,000mi is really 35,000mi" Regardless, it would be interesting to see the actual number worked through to see what the equivalent EV registration fee should be if road damage/maintenance is the sole factor.
- rjrjrjrj 9mo ago12-15k miles in a Ford SuperDuty is equivalent to how far in a gas Civic? I suspect that driver isn't being charged accordingly.
- caseysoftware 9mo agoRegistration fees are likely the same or close but when you factor in gas taxes (the original comparison here), the Ford is definitely paying more both based on fuel type and mpg.
- rjrjrjrj 9mo agoMore, sure. But not remotely proportional to the increased wear and tear from vehicle weight.
- caseysoftware 9mo agoPossible. How far off is it?
- rjrjrjrj 9mo agoPretty far? According to your link, an EV that is 700lb heavier => 2.24x damage Civic: ~2900lb SuperDuty: ~5700-7600lb
- caseysoftware 9mo agoWhat is the difference in taxes paid for an equivalent amount of damage? I understand the point you're trying to make - and you may be right - but you're leaving out the math to demonstrate it.
- rjrjrjrj 9mo agoCivic fuel economy is about 2x an unloaded SuperDuty, so the SuperDuty owner likely pays maybe a bit more than 2x in gas tax + registration. +700lb (+25%) => 2.25x damage +2800lb (+100%) => ???x damage Your story doesn't provide a formula, but seems obvious it is much, much greater than 2 - this isn't a linear relationship And that's the very lightest SuperDuty model, unloaded.
- gs17 9mo ago> casue a disproportionate amount of wear & tear on the roads vs ICE vehicles If it was, it would be based on vehicle weight and distance driven. Where I am, at least, it's simply a tax on efficiency.