5 ms·

Can’t you pay to be in the HOV lane? Seems like a pretty ideal system. Having that extra lane wouldn’t solve any issues for most drivers. For high occupancy o

Can’t you pay to be in the HOV lane? Seems like a pretty ideal system. Having that extra lane wouldn’t solve any issues for most drivers. For high occupancy or those willing to pay, it does.

SkiFire13 10mo ago
I think you missed this point: > I can look over and see that more than half of the drivers are in violation, and yet it is effectively unenforced.
- thayne 10mo ago
  How do you know that those people aren't paying? OTOH, I don't know how you could effectively enforce that single occupant vehicles are paying.
  - kluikens 10mo ago
    The FasTrak scanners above the lane flash the occupancy setting (1, 2, or 3+) on the driver's transponder. It's easy to observe cheating single-occupant vehicles because the flashed number is 3 (a toll-free rate). For automated enforcement, there's prior art in red light camera systems that mail tickets/violations to the registered vehicle owner.
    - dietr1ch 10mo ago
      Yeah, but you pay the full fare with 1 person, half with 2 people, and it's free with 3+. It's something that isn't straight obvious though. When I got there I also thought that people were just in violation of the people requirement. I don't get the point of the occupancy reader if there's no hard-requirement of 3+ in the current zone. Maybe there are some stricter HOV-only lanes nowadays? I left the bay area in late 2023
      - b112 10mo ago
        They did start enforcing a bunch of lanes after COVID.
  - FireBeyond 10mo ago
    In Washington state, for one, I know that there used to be a phone number posted periodically for civilian reports of HOV violators. That's gone now with just a warning of the fine amounts.
    - sib 10mo ago
      Yeah and some blind (gender-TBD) Karen reported me on that when they couldn't see my kids sitting in the back seat.
    - deleted 10mo ago
      [deleted]
- Mountain_Skies 10mo ago
  When I worked for a tollway (not SF so maybe they're different), toll violations were enforced by mailing a ticket to the offender after the fact. There weren't any patrols out on the road looking for violators. Don't pay the fine (plus the toll), don't get to renew your license plates. We had agreements with some other states for enforcement against their vehicles in our state. The cameras rarely were unable to get a good enough view of the license plate for the CSRs to not be able to find out whose vehicle it was.
- SkyPuncher 10mo ago
  I didn’t miss the point. You had zero way to know if someone is in violation or simply paying to be there.
  - _yb2s 10mo ago
    In the vast majority of Bay Area HOV lanes you cannot pay to be there, that only applies to fasttrack lanes, and in those you can read the occupancy setting of others cars on an overhead screen as they drive though. In both cases you can easily tell, especially in very slow moving traffic who is in violation or not. Once when bored in very slow nearly stopped traffic during rush hour on a stretch of the 80 with no fasttrack, and in a vehicle high enough to see if there were kids in the nearby cars, I counted a large sample (about 50) cars and found that roughly two thirds of the HOV occupants were in violation.
coldtea 10mo ago
So basically just another systemic benefit to the more well off
- loeg 10mo ago
  This is how money works. You're expressing anger at the concept of personal property. Yes, those who have more money can afford more expensive goods -- that's the whole point!
  - conception 10mo ago
    It’s not an expensive good - its a commons. The HOV lanes are “rich people super freeways” they are there to help mass transit.
    - BurningFrog 10mo ago
      It's a scarce good, which loses most of its value if overused. The standard Econ solution is to set a price that maximizes throughput. At least some toll roads are attempting to hit that price.
      - SR2Z 10mo ago
        In the US, toll roads are required by law to maintain a certain minimum speed. The price is set based on that.
        loeg 10mo ago
        What law?
        SR2Z 10mo ago
        I suppose "regulation" would be more accurate, and it only applies to HOV lanes that receive funding from a specific source: https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/freewaymgmt/hovguidance/chapter4.htm https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/freewaymgmt/hovguidance/chapter4.ht... This covers pretty much all of the lanes that people complain about so I'll stand by what I said.
lokar 10mo ago
In most situations the restricted lane (regardless of how you pick who gets to use it), does in fact benefit everyone else. Under high congestion traffic throughput plummets. Restricted access to one or more lanes lets you keep them flowing at near the peak, increasing the overall throughput of the system by much more than one of the congested lanes.
- imoverclocked 10mo ago
  The issue is that average number is of little consolation to everyone in the slower lanes.
  - hedora 10mo ago
    Most of the Bay Area HOV lanes are not limited access. They let you enter/exit wherever, creating congestion. They also slow down traffic at the points where people have to cross lots of lanes to enter/exit. When before/after studies have been done, the HOV lanes around here generally make everything worse.
    - whimsicalism 10mo ago
      share
notyourwork 10mo ago
Depends on the location. Some are strictly passenger capacity.
- _yb2s 10mo ago
  Really, the vast majority of them are, the fasttrack ones are in a few specific spots, but almost all bay area freeways have at least a 3+ only HOV lane.
_yb2s 10mo ago
> Can’t you pay to be in the HOV lane? On a few of them, but not the ones I commute on and am talking about. If you do use one of the 'pay' lanes, it becomes free if you switch your fasttrak device to '3+' setting, and given the frequency of visually obvious violations in the ones you can't pay for, I would be surprised if many people are actually paying for the ones you can pay for.

Can’t you pay to be in the HOV lane? Seems like a pretty ideal system. Having that extra lane wouldn’t solve any issues for most drivers. For high occupancy or those willing to pay, it does.

SkiFire13 10mo ago

I think you missed this point: > I can look over and see that more than half of the drivers are in violation, and yet it is effectively unenforced.

thayne 10mo ago
How do you know that those people aren't paying? OTOH, I don't know how you could effectively enforce that single occupant vehicles are paying.
- kluikens 10mo ago
  The FasTrak scanners above the lane flash the occupancy setting (1, 2, or 3+) on the driver's transponder. It's easy to observe cheating single-occupant vehicles because the flashed number is 3 (a toll-free rate). For automated enforcement, there's prior art in red light camera systems that mail tickets/violations to the registered vehicle owner.
  - dietr1ch 10mo ago
    Yeah, but you pay the full fare with 1 person, half with 2 people, and it's free with 3+. It's something that isn't straight obvious though. When I got there I also thought that people were just in violation of the people requirement. I don't get the point of the occupancy reader if there's no hard-requirement of 3+ in the current zone. Maybe there are some stricter HOV-only lanes nowadays? I left the bay area in late 2023
    - b112 10mo ago
      They did start enforcing a bunch of lanes after COVID.
- FireBeyond 10mo ago
  In Washington state, for one, I know that there used to be a phone number posted periodically for civilian reports of HOV violators. That's gone now with just a warning of the fine amounts.
  - sib 10mo ago
    Yeah and some blind (gender-TBD) Karen reported me on that when they couldn't see my kids sitting in the back seat.
  - deleted 10mo ago
    [deleted]
Mountain_Skies 10mo ago
When I worked for a tollway (not SF so maybe they're different), toll violations were enforced by mailing a ticket to the offender after the fact. There weren't any patrols out on the road looking for violators. Don't pay the fine (plus the toll), don't get to renew your license plates. We had agreements with some other states for enforcement against their vehicles in our state. The cameras rarely were unable to get a good enough view of the license plate for the CSRs to not be able to find out whose vehicle it was.
SkyPuncher 10mo ago
I didn’t miss the point. You had zero way to know if someone is in violation or simply paying to be there.
- _yb2s 10mo ago
  In the vast majority of Bay Area HOV lanes you cannot pay to be there, that only applies to fasttrack lanes, and in those you can read the occupancy setting of others cars on an overhead screen as they drive though. In both cases you can easily tell, especially in very slow moving traffic who is in violation or not. Once when bored in very slow nearly stopped traffic during rush hour on a stretch of the 80 with no fasttrack, and in a vehicle high enough to see if there were kids in the nearby cars, I counted a large sample (about 50) cars and found that roughly two thirds of the HOV occupants were in violation.

coldtea 10mo ago

So basically just another systemic benefit to the more well off

loeg 10mo ago
This is how money works. You're expressing anger at the concept of personal property. Yes, those who have more money can afford more expensive goods -- that's the whole point!
- conception 10mo ago
  It’s not an expensive good - its a commons. The HOV lanes are “rich people super freeways” they are there to help mass transit.
  - BurningFrog 10mo ago
    It's a scarce good, which loses most of its value if overused. The standard Econ solution is to set a price that maximizes throughput. At least some toll roads are attempting to hit that price.
    - SR2Z 10mo ago
      In the US, toll roads are required by law to maintain a certain minimum speed. The price is set based on that.
      - loeg 10mo ago
        What law?
        SR2Z 10mo ago
        I suppose "regulation" would be more accurate, and it only applies to HOV lanes that receive funding from a specific source: https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/freewaymgmt/hovguidance/chapter4.htm https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/freewaymgmt/hovguidance/chapter4.ht... This covers pretty much all of the lanes that people complain about so I'll stand by what I said.

lokar 10mo ago

In most situations the restricted lane (regardless of how you pick who gets to use it), does in fact benefit everyone else. Under high congestion traffic throughput plummets. Restricted access to one or more lanes lets you keep them flowing at near the peak, increasing the overall throughput of the system by much more than one of the congested lanes.

imoverclocked 10mo ago
The issue is that average number is of little consolation to everyone in the slower lanes.
- hedora 10mo ago
  Most of the Bay Area HOV lanes are not limited access. They let you enter/exit wherever, creating congestion. They also slow down traffic at the points where people have to cross lots of lanes to enter/exit. When before/after studies have been done, the HOV lanes around here generally make everything worse.
  - whimsicalism 10mo ago
    share

notyourwork 10mo ago

Depends on the location. Some are strictly passenger capacity.

_yb2s 10mo ago
Really, the vast majority of them are, the fasttrack ones are in a few specific spots, but almost all bay area freeways have at least a 3+ only HOV lane.

_yb2s 10mo ago

> Can’t you pay to be in the HOV lane? On a few of them, but not the ones I commute on and am talking about. If you do use one of the 'pay' lanes, it becomes free if you switch your fasttrak device to '3+' setting, and given the frequency of visually obvious violations in the ones you can't pay for, I would be surprised if many people are actually paying for the ones you can pay for.