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Houston would be unlivable without toll roads in 2025. The medical center would collapse overnight. The SH288 toll has probably indirectly saved more lives than

by bob1029 10mo ago

Houston would be unlivable without toll roads in 2025. The medical center would collapse overnight. The SH288 toll has probably indirectly saved more lives than any other toll project in the state. Medical professionals can reliably get between their suburban homes and their patients in ~constant time now. It's maybe not "fair" that some people can use this option indiscriminately every day, but at least it is an option that everyone has access to. There's no physical barrier stopping you from using the Texas toll roads if you really needed to in an emergency. All that will happen is a bill will appear in your mailbox about 30 days later. If you choose to not pay it, the chances something bad will happen are approximately zero.

black_13 10mo ago
[dead]
dangus 10mo ago
Of course, this project cost $2.1 billion, including $815 million to build the toll lanes in the freeway’s center. And it could be made ineffective as regional expansion continues. As soon as enough people who are willing to pay the toll saturates capacity you end up with the same issue (“just one more lane bro”). I see this all the time in the DC metro area’s toll express lanes that often save no significant time. Another effective way to control highway congestion is to get people off of highways and invest in your transit system, make it better than driving so that people don’t drive as often. But maybe Houston is too far gone for that. For comparison, the Chicago red line extension project adds 5 miles of heavy rail for about twice the cost, so 4x more per mile. But the Houston toll lane project doesn’t do anything positive for adjacent property values like new rail stations do. Chicago will get money back from more property taxes and the new stations will relieve traffic on the Dan Ryan. Transit lines get faster as ridership increases due to the ability to increase schedule frequency, the exact opposite of highways. I am not saying Houston should magically turn into 1800s-era urban fabric but maybe some decent park and ride commuter transit would be a start? There are cities in Texas with 6 figure populations that have NO public bus system.
- axiolite 10mo ago
  > As soon as enough people who are willing to pay the toll saturates capacity you end up with the same issue (“just one more lane bro”). Increase the toll prices to reduce congestion, increase the number of buses on that route, and use some of the money for either expanding the road or building another more-or-less parallel road.
  - deleted 10mo ago
    [deleted]
  - bob1029 10mo ago
    > Increase the toll prices to reduce congestion This stretch of road is already using congestion/dynamic pricing. I've never had to go slower than 85mph the entire way.
    - dangus 10mo ago
      Sure, the point is, what about 10-20 years from now when there are enough drivers where the cost doesn’t matter? It’s like Disney World. They can fill the parks with people willing to pay $200 a day for tickets alone. If you can’t afford it then it doesn’t matter that other people get to get in. Highways just don’t scale well. Two train tracks can move about the same number of people as 15 lanes of highway.
  - iknowstuff 10mo ago
    This indeed the “just one more lane bro” solution. What you are missing is how utterly destructive to the urban fabric and disgusting freeways are. Take a stroll next to one sometime.
    - potato3732842 10mo ago
      I live within earshot of one and there's a freight rail even closer. Sure it's loud but the way it causes "the wrong kind of people"[1] to self select to not live here is great for my stress levels. [1]the kind who have so few problems that freeway proximity makes it high on the list of things that inform where they choose to live
no_wizard 10mo ago
Wouldn’t fast efficient light rail been generally better? From a social and economic perspective it would be more efficient. The real problem with that only tends to be political, namely there is a strange aversion to properly built public infrastructure
- krapp 10mo ago
  >there is a strange aversion to properly built public infrastructure It costs money which taxpayers don't want to pay (unless it benefits them personally,) it requires long term planning which governments are incapable of, and it smells like socialism.
- Mountain_Skies 10mo ago
  In the medical scenario, having medical workers sit around waiting for the train after they've driven to the station would be a problem if their presence is needed quickly. Or did you also want everyone to cram into high rises clustered around stations?
  - zahlman 10mo ago
    The point is that use of public transit by ordinary people helps free up the road for EMS vehicles.
    - fuzzfactor 10mo ago
      What I see on the rail in Houston are health-care workers and office people, but looks like very few doctors or executives.
  - venturecruelty 10mo ago
    Idk, man, Europe and like... half of Asia seem to have figured this out, and their healthcare outcomes are better. But sure, this contrived pro-car scenario is why trains don't work.
- infecto 10mo ago
  I think effective light rail is really hard to get right in the US. Think about Houston, its already a a massive asphalt parking lot nightmare, its not very walk-able, it gets hot and humid in the summer. It simply won't work in most of the US. This is not a build it and they will come situation.
thatfrenchguy 10mo ago
I mean, medical professionals would live closer without it most likely

by bob1029 10mo ago

black_13 10mo ago

[dead]

dangus 10mo ago

Of course, this project cost $2.1 billion, including $815 million to build the toll lanes in the freeway’s center. And it could be made ineffective as regional expansion continues. As soon as enough people who are willing to pay the toll saturates capacity you end up with the same issue (“just one more lane bro”). I see this all the time in the DC metro area’s toll express lanes that often save no significant time. Another effective way to control highway congestion is to get people off of highways and invest in your transit system, make it better than driving so that people don’t drive as often. But maybe Houston is too far gone for that. For comparison, the Chicago red line extension project adds 5 miles of heavy rail for about twice the cost, so 4x more per mile. But the Houston toll lane project doesn’t do anything positive for adjacent property values like new rail stations do. Chicago will get money back from more property taxes and the new stations will relieve traffic on the Dan Ryan. Transit lines get faster as ridership increases due to the ability to increase schedule frequency, the exact opposite of highways. I am not saying Houston should magically turn into 1800s-era urban fabric but maybe some decent park and ride commuter transit would be a start? There are cities in Texas with 6 figure populations that have NO public bus system.

axiolite 10mo ago
> As soon as enough people who are willing to pay the toll saturates capacity you end up with the same issue (“just one more lane bro”). Increase the toll prices to reduce congestion, increase the number of buses on that route, and use some of the money for either expanding the road or building another more-or-less parallel road.
- deleted 10mo ago
  [deleted]
- bob1029 10mo ago
  > Increase the toll prices to reduce congestion This stretch of road is already using congestion/dynamic pricing. I've never had to go slower than 85mph the entire way.
  - dangus 10mo ago
    Sure, the point is, what about 10-20 years from now when there are enough drivers where the cost doesn’t matter? It’s like Disney World. They can fill the parks with people willing to pay $200 a day for tickets alone. If you can’t afford it then it doesn’t matter that other people get to get in. Highways just don’t scale well. Two train tracks can move about the same number of people as 15 lanes of highway.
- iknowstuff 10mo ago
  This indeed the “just one more lane bro” solution. What you are missing is how utterly destructive to the urban fabric and disgusting freeways are. Take a stroll next to one sometime.
  - potato3732842 10mo ago
    I live within earshot of one and there's a freight rail even closer. Sure it's loud but the way it causes "the wrong kind of people"[1] to self select to not live here is great for my stress levels. [1]the kind who have so few problems that freeway proximity makes it high on the list of things that inform where they choose to live

no_wizard 10mo ago

Wouldn’t fast efficient light rail been generally better? From a social and economic perspective it would be more efficient. The real problem with that only tends to be political, namely there is a strange aversion to properly built public infrastructure

krapp 10mo ago
>there is a strange aversion to properly built public infrastructure It costs money which taxpayers don't want to pay (unless it benefits them personally,) it requires long term planning which governments are incapable of, and it smells like socialism.
Mountain_Skies 10mo ago
In the medical scenario, having medical workers sit around waiting for the train after they've driven to the station would be a problem if their presence is needed quickly. Or did you also want everyone to cram into high rises clustered around stations?
- zahlman 10mo ago
  The point is that use of public transit by ordinary people helps free up the road for EMS vehicles.
  - fuzzfactor 10mo ago
    What I see on the rail in Houston are health-care workers and office people, but looks like very few doctors or executives.
- venturecruelty 10mo ago
  Idk, man, Europe and like... half of Asia seem to have figured this out, and their healthcare outcomes are better. But sure, this contrived pro-car scenario is why trains don't work.
infecto 10mo ago
I think effective light rail is really hard to get right in the US. Think about Houston, its already a a massive asphalt parking lot nightmare, its not very walk-able, it gets hot and humid in the summer. It simply won't work in most of the US. This is not a build it and they will come situation.

thatfrenchguy 10mo ago

I mean, medical professionals would live closer without it most likely