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Necessary public infrastructure that is paid for with tax dollars is not a public good? And just in case this fact is being lost / forgotten: Toll roads are pr

Necessary public infrastructure that is paid for with tax dollars is not a public good? And just in case this fact is being lost / forgotten: Toll roads are primarily, originally funded through tax dollars but are disingenuously structured in a way these bozos can go "see, it's not actually tax dollars" (it is). The same exact dollars that should be used to build fully public, free roads are instead used to privatize public infrastructure. There has never been a time where a toll raid has failed and the losses were treated as private. The bonds magically get repaid (to the right people, of course). It's all tax dollars in the end, one way or another.

vel0city 10mo ago
> Toll roads are primarily, originally funded through tax dollars This is untrue of all the toll roads I've regularly driven in multiple cities in the US. Their construction was funded through bonds which are paid back from the toll revenues.
- whoknowsidont 10mo ago
  why did you ignore my other statements that expressly address this "viewpoint." The bonds are issued either by the authority itself or some other agency expressly delegated to issue those bonds. The accounting is done EXPRESSLY with the knowledge of the states general fund, even though there's a "wink wink" don't use the tax dollars to """directly""" pay for these bonds. Don't believe me? Look at the financial reports yourself. There is zero point in the fuzzy accounting other than to make something that simply should be public, private, and allow grifters to make a buck or two off it. In EVERY CASE of a failed toll road the major bond holders have all been made whole through the state directly or indirectly. If you have the money, investing in a toll road is the easiest way to make lots of money with 0 risk. But you can only do that if the entity issues those bonds "knows" and "selects" you. :)
  - vel0city 10mo ago
    > Look at the financial reports yourself I have for the toll roads I drive on. It shows the debt payments being paid by the toll revenues, not other state taxes. > In EVERY CASE of a failed toll road the major bond holders have all been made whole through the state directly or indirectly. Sure, the toll agencies are ultimately a creature of the state but it's incorrect (a lie?) to argue it's funded primarily, originally through tax dollars, at least for the toll roads I drive on. What's the rate of these failures? What's the actual percentage of these bonds being paid by toll revenues versus failing and the states being on the hook? Once again you said it's primarily and originally. Being paid because the bond failed to be paid back by toll revenues isn't the original payment plan, and unless it's happening most of the time it's not the primary way of those bonds being paid. > make something that simply should be public, private The toll roads I'm talking about are public. > address this "viewpoint." This "viewpoint" is otherwise known as "reality".
    - whoknowsidont 10mo ago
      >I have for the toll roads I drive on. Link me so I can draw some circles for you. > to argue it's funded primarily, originally through tax dollars Do you know how bonds work? It's an isomorphic operation. A state entity is issuing bonds out to creditors. A lot of those major creditors will also be secured creditors. It's the same thing, just covered under a sleight of hand trick. So the state borrows money from a select few major creditors but it's "wink wink" not against the full faith and credit of the state, then regulates a consumption tax on the road, and the investors and authority get a slice of the pie. For what purpose? And when the toll roads fail either the creditors are paid out either through the state out right buying the road or allowing the debt to be a tax write off over X amount of time. >This "viewpoint" is otherwise known as "reality". This American brainworm is exhausting, ngl. Buddy you're getting bamboozled by a few vocab words and a 3 step accounting trick, please don't presume to talk to anyone about reality.
      - vel0city 10mo ago
        > Link me so I can draw some circles for you. https://www.ntta.org/sites/default/files/2025-06/06-27-2025_Annual-Report_2024_Digital.pdf https://www.ntta.org/sites/default/files/2025-06/06-27-2025_... > then regulates a consumption tax on the road Yeah, the toll. One assumes you're not talking about the toll but other tax revenues when you're complaining about tax payers paying for the road. Obviously the tolls go to pay for the toll road, so what's the point otherwise about talking about the taxpayers paying for it? Buddy it's really exhausting ngl having people always assume every toll organization is a private enterprise. It's not just a 3 step accounting trick, please don't presume you know how every toll arrangement is made. And if your point is the idea of government bonds going to private investors, well, how do you think the freeways are financed? How does it make a difference then if it's a freeway or a toll road or a library or a playground? It's all financed in largely the same way. Government bonds issues to selected investors.
silotis 10mo ago
"Public good" is a term of art in economics which means a good is both non-excludable (it is impractical to control who benefits from it) and non-rivalrous (one person benefiting does not prevent others from also benefiting). Roads are clearly rivalrous and while it's often impractical to prevent non-payers from entering a toll road, one can certainly record them and met penalties after the fact to discourage it. So no, roads are not a public good.
- DangitBobby 10mo ago
  If roads are "rivalrous" then so is literally everything else.
  - silotis 10mo ago
    Roads are rivalrous because too many people using them causes a traffic jam. Seriously go read the Wikipedia article on the subject.
    - DangitBobby 10mo ago
      Parks, stadiums, etc famously have infinite capacity.
- JumpCrisscross 10mo ago
  > roads are not a public good You’re both right. Roads can be an impure public good. At low traffic loading, they are not rivalrous and can be modelled as a public good. At high traffic loading they become rivalrous and thus closer to a common-pool resource. If roads are made excludable, they resemble a club or even private group.

vel0city 10mo ago

> Toll roads are primarily, originally funded through tax dollars This is untrue of all the toll roads I've regularly driven in multiple cities in the US. Their construction was funded through bonds which are paid back from the toll revenues.

whoknowsidont 10mo ago
why did you ignore my other statements that expressly address this "viewpoint." The bonds are issued either by the authority itself or some other agency expressly delegated to issue those bonds. The accounting is done EXPRESSLY with the knowledge of the states general fund, even though there's a "wink wink" don't use the tax dollars to """directly""" pay for these bonds. Don't believe me? Look at the financial reports yourself. There is zero point in the fuzzy accounting other than to make something that simply should be public, private, and allow grifters to make a buck or two off it. In EVERY CASE of a failed toll road the major bond holders have all been made whole through the state directly or indirectly. If you have the money, investing in a toll road is the easiest way to make lots of money with 0 risk. But you can only do that if the entity issues those bonds "knows" and "selects" you. :)
- vel0city 10mo ago
  > Look at the financial reports yourself I have for the toll roads I drive on. It shows the debt payments being paid by the toll revenues, not other state taxes. > In EVERY CASE of a failed toll road the major bond holders have all been made whole through the state directly or indirectly. Sure, the toll agencies are ultimately a creature of the state but it's incorrect (a lie?) to argue it's funded primarily, originally through tax dollars, at least for the toll roads I drive on. What's the rate of these failures? What's the actual percentage of these bonds being paid by toll revenues versus failing and the states being on the hook? Once again you said it's primarily and originally. Being paid because the bond failed to be paid back by toll revenues isn't the original payment plan, and unless it's happening most of the time it's not the primary way of those bonds being paid. > make something that simply should be public, private The toll roads I'm talking about are public. > address this "viewpoint." This "viewpoint" is otherwise known as "reality".
  - whoknowsidont 10mo ago
    >I have for the toll roads I drive on. Link me so I can draw some circles for you. > to argue it's funded primarily, originally through tax dollars Do you know how bonds work? It's an isomorphic operation. A state entity is issuing bonds out to creditors. A lot of those major creditors will also be secured creditors. It's the same thing, just covered under a sleight of hand trick. So the state borrows money from a select few major creditors but it's "wink wink" not against the full faith and credit of the state, then regulates a consumption tax on the road, and the investors and authority get a slice of the pie. For what purpose? And when the toll roads fail either the creditors are paid out either through the state out right buying the road or allowing the debt to be a tax write off over X amount of time. >This "viewpoint" is otherwise known as "reality". This American brainworm is exhausting, ngl. Buddy you're getting bamboozled by a few vocab words and a 3 step accounting trick, please don't presume to talk to anyone about reality.
    - vel0city 10mo ago
      > Link me so I can draw some circles for you. https://www.ntta.org/sites/default/files/2025-06/06-27-2025_Annual-Report_2024_Digital.pdf https://www.ntta.org/sites/default/files/2025-06/06-27-2025_... > then regulates a consumption tax on the road Yeah, the toll. One assumes you're not talking about the toll but other tax revenues when you're complaining about tax payers paying for the road. Obviously the tolls go to pay for the toll road, so what's the point otherwise about talking about the taxpayers paying for it? Buddy it's really exhausting ngl having people always assume every toll organization is a private enterprise. It's not just a 3 step accounting trick, please don't presume you know how every toll arrangement is made. And if your point is the idea of government bonds going to private investors, well, how do you think the freeways are financed? How does it make a difference then if it's a freeway or a toll road or a library or a playground? It's all financed in largely the same way. Government bonds issues to selected investors.

silotis 10mo ago

"Public good" is a term of art in economics which means a good is both non-excludable (it is impractical to control who benefits from it) and non-rivalrous (one person benefiting does not prevent others from also benefiting). Roads are clearly rivalrous and while it's often impractical to prevent non-payers from entering a toll road, one can certainly record them and met penalties after the fact to discourage it. So no, roads are not a public good.

DangitBobby 10mo ago
If roads are "rivalrous" then so is literally everything else.
- silotis 10mo ago
  Roads are rivalrous because too many people using them causes a traffic jam. Seriously go read the Wikipedia article on the subject.
  - DangitBobby 10mo ago
    Parks, stadiums, etc famously have infinite capacity.
JumpCrisscross 10mo ago
> roads are not a public good You’re both right. Roads can be an impure public good. At low traffic loading, they are not rivalrous and can be modelled as a public good. At high traffic loading they become rivalrous and thus closer to a common-pool resource. If roads are made excludable, they resemble a club or even private group.