5 ms·

A highway is not a public good. It is a publicly subsidized good for private consumption. Can I use the highway if I don’t have a car? (Barely) Can I use it f

by _aavaa_ 10mo ago

A highway is not a public good. It is a publicly subsidized good for private consumption. Can I use the highway if I don’t have a car? (Barely) Can I use it for anything non driving related (like a downtown street where lanes can be repurposed for outdoor seating)? No I agree with you on what does the majority of the damage.

potato3732842 10mo ago
>A highway is not a public good. It is a publicly subsidized good for private consumption. So is every park. What's the point of this language game?
morkalork 10mo ago
I don't understand, there are plenty of other things the public pays for that you can't use for other, unintended purposes. You can't fly your hobby drone out of a public airport just because you want.
DangitBobby 10mo ago
Apparently under your definition of a public good, there's no such thing.
xnx 10mo ago
> Can I use the highway if I don’t have a car? Can I use the schools if I don't have a child?
- DangitBobby 10mo ago
  I'd argue there should be some access to school facilities by the public if you want to call them "public". Otherwise it's about as public as the police department.
- whoknowsidont 10mo ago
  In the U.S. you can definitely use school facilities after hours (such as the fields, and even some buildings, etc). The primary concern with not allowing access at any time of day to the general public is of course, the children.
  - DangitBobby 10mo ago
    I'm not aware of any public schools in my area that would allow me to, e.g., use the basketball court or soccer field after school hours or on the weekends.
    - whoknowsidont 10mo ago
      Have you tried? I've certainly been able to. And I'm definitely not alone in having used those facilities. I've used them personally and for ad-hoc sport events (lacrosse isn't exactly popular in the area I'm in right now).
      - DangitBobby 10mo ago
        Not recently, though I have observed locked doors and gates that make it pretty difficult to use. If your caveat is you need to call ahead to organize an event that's a pretty different use-case from what I'd like to do, which is to use them very casually and occasionally.
        whoknowsidont 10mo ago
        I've never called ahead or anything like that. There are a fair amount of people using them on the weekends, as far as I've seen. There is one school that definitely is gated off, but that's because it's near a major point of interest and I can only assume they're worried about non-community members damaging the property.
    - bombcar 10mo ago
      That probably says more about the area you live in than the public schools. Around here the grounds are not only open outside of school hours, but explicitly so (they have closing hours posted: 9PM).
  - vel0city 10mo ago
    > you can definitely use school facilities after hours Aside from a few things like some playgrounds shared with public parks next door this has often been pretty untrue. I've definitely had police escort me off school basketball courts when school isn't in session, the natatoriums haven't had much public access, it's not like the school libraries are open after hours, etc. I'm sure some places are more open and some are less open, I wouldn't say you can "definitely" use them.
- deleted 10mo ago
  [deleted]
whoknowsidont 10mo ago
Necessary public infrastructure that is paid for with tax dollars is not a public good? And just in case this fact is being lost / forgotten: Toll roads are primarily, originally funded through tax dollars but are disingenuously structured in a way these bozos can go "see, it's not actually tax dollars" (it is). The same exact dollars that should be used to build fully public, free roads are instead used to privatize public infrastructure. There has never been a time where a toll raid has failed and the losses were treated as private. The bonds magically get repaid (to the right people, of course). It's all tax dollars in the end, one way or another.
- vel0city 10mo ago
  > Toll roads are primarily, originally funded through tax dollars This is untrue of all the toll roads I've regularly driven in multiple cities in the US. Their construction was funded through bonds which are paid back from the toll revenues.
  - whoknowsidont 10mo ago
    why did you ignore my other statements that expressly address this "viewpoint." The bonds are issued either by the authority itself or some other agency expressly delegated to issue those bonds. The accounting is done EXPRESSLY with the knowledge of the states general fund, even though there's a "wink wink" don't use the tax dollars to """directly""" pay for these bonds. Don't believe me? Look at the financial reports yourself. There is zero point in the fuzzy accounting other than to make something that simply should be public, private, and allow grifters to make a buck or two off it. In EVERY CASE of a failed toll road the major bond holders have all been made whole through the state directly or indirectly. If you have the money, investing in a toll road is the easiest way to make lots of money with 0 risk. But you can only do that if the entity issues those bonds "knows" and "selects" you. :)
    - vel0city 10mo ago
      > Look at the financial reports yourself I have for the toll roads I drive on. It shows the debt payments being paid by the toll revenues, not other state taxes. > In EVERY CASE of a failed toll road the major bond holders have all been made whole through the state directly or indirectly. Sure, the toll agencies are ultimately a creature of the state but it's incorrect (a lie?) to argue it's funded primarily, originally through tax dollars, at least for the toll roads I drive on. What's the rate of these failures? What's the actual percentage of these bonds being paid by toll revenues versus failing and the states being on the hook? Once again you said it's primarily and originally. Being paid because the bond failed to be paid back by toll revenues isn't the original payment plan, and unless it's happening most of the time it's not the primary way of those bonds being paid. > make something that simply should be public, private The toll roads I'm talking about are public. > address this "viewpoint." This "viewpoint" is otherwise known as "reality".
kevin_thibedeau 10mo ago
The US interstates move military equipment across the country without needing to deal with railroad bottlenecks. It is a public good. Just like GPS, it has ancillary civic functions but it still serves its original purpose.
- scoofy 10mo ago
  I mean, that's the de jure purpose, but that's really a nonsensical point to make here. We're not talking about one controlled access route with two lanes in both directions to move tanks around. We're talking about 10 lane monstrosities, with 8 or more flyovers, standing 20 stories high in places like in Houston and Dallas.

by _aavaa_ 10mo ago

potato3732842 10mo ago

>A highway is not a public good. It is a publicly subsidized good for private consumption. So is every park. What's the point of this language game?

morkalork 10mo ago

I don't understand, there are plenty of other things the public pays for that you can't use for other, unintended purposes. You can't fly your hobby drone out of a public airport just because you want.

DangitBobby 10mo ago

Apparently under your definition of a public good, there's no such thing.

xnx 10mo ago

> Can I use the highway if I don’t have a car? Can I use the schools if I don't have a child?

DangitBobby 10mo ago
I'd argue there should be some access to school facilities by the public if you want to call them "public". Otherwise it's about as public as the police department.
whoknowsidont 10mo ago
In the U.S. you can definitely use school facilities after hours (such as the fields, and even some buildings, etc). The primary concern with not allowing access at any time of day to the general public is of course, the children.
- DangitBobby 10mo ago
  I'm not aware of any public schools in my area that would allow me to, e.g., use the basketball court or soccer field after school hours or on the weekends.
  - whoknowsidont 10mo ago
    Have you tried? I've certainly been able to. And I'm definitely not alone in having used those facilities. I've used them personally and for ad-hoc sport events (lacrosse isn't exactly popular in the area I'm in right now).
    - DangitBobby 10mo ago
      Not recently, though I have observed locked doors and gates that make it pretty difficult to use. If your caveat is you need to call ahead to organize an event that's a pretty different use-case from what I'd like to do, which is to use them very casually and occasionally.
      - whoknowsidont 10mo ago
        I've never called ahead or anything like that. There are a fair amount of people using them on the weekends, as far as I've seen. There is one school that definitely is gated off, but that's because it's near a major point of interest and I can only assume they're worried about non-community members damaging the property.
  - bombcar 10mo ago
    That probably says more about the area you live in than the public schools. Around here the grounds are not only open outside of school hours, but explicitly so (they have closing hours posted: 9PM).
- vel0city 10mo ago
  > you can definitely use school facilities after hours Aside from a few things like some playgrounds shared with public parks next door this has often been pretty untrue. I've definitely had police escort me off school basketball courts when school isn't in session, the natatoriums haven't had much public access, it's not like the school libraries are open after hours, etc. I'm sure some places are more open and some are less open, I wouldn't say you can "definitely" use them.
deleted 10mo ago
[deleted]

whoknowsidont 10mo ago

Necessary public infrastructure that is paid for with tax dollars is not a public good? And just in case this fact is being lost / forgotten: Toll roads are primarily, originally funded through tax dollars but are disingenuously structured in a way these bozos can go "see, it's not actually tax dollars" (it is). The same exact dollars that should be used to build fully public, free roads are instead used to privatize public infrastructure. There has never been a time where a toll raid has failed and the losses were treated as private. The bonds magically get repaid (to the right people, of course). It's all tax dollars in the end, one way or another.

vel0city 10mo ago
> Toll roads are primarily, originally funded through tax dollars This is untrue of all the toll roads I've regularly driven in multiple cities in the US. Their construction was funded through bonds which are paid back from the toll revenues.
- whoknowsidont 10mo ago
  why did you ignore my other statements that expressly address this "viewpoint." The bonds are issued either by the authority itself or some other agency expressly delegated to issue those bonds. The accounting is done EXPRESSLY with the knowledge of the states general fund, even though there's a "wink wink" don't use the tax dollars to """directly""" pay for these bonds. Don't believe me? Look at the financial reports yourself. There is zero point in the fuzzy accounting other than to make something that simply should be public, private, and allow grifters to make a buck or two off it. In EVERY CASE of a failed toll road the major bond holders have all been made whole through the state directly or indirectly. If you have the money, investing in a toll road is the easiest way to make lots of money with 0 risk. But you can only do that if the entity issues those bonds "knows" and "selects" you. :)
  - vel0city 10mo ago
    > Look at the financial reports yourself I have for the toll roads I drive on. It shows the debt payments being paid by the toll revenues, not other state taxes. > In EVERY CASE of a failed toll road the major bond holders have all been made whole through the state directly or indirectly. Sure, the toll agencies are ultimately a creature of the state but it's incorrect (a lie?) to argue it's funded primarily, originally through tax dollars, at least for the toll roads I drive on. What's the rate of these failures? What's the actual percentage of these bonds being paid by toll revenues versus failing and the states being on the hook? Once again you said it's primarily and originally. Being paid because the bond failed to be paid back by toll revenues isn't the original payment plan, and unless it's happening most of the time it's not the primary way of those bonds being paid. > make something that simply should be public, private The toll roads I'm talking about are public. > address this "viewpoint." This "viewpoint" is otherwise known as "reality".

kevin_thibedeau 10mo ago

The US interstates move military equipment across the country without needing to deal with railroad bottlenecks. It is a public good. Just like GPS, it has ancillary civic functions but it still serves its original purpose.

scoofy 10mo ago
I mean, that's the de jure purpose, but that's really a nonsensical point to make here. We're not talking about one controlled access route with two lanes in both directions to move tanks around. We're talking about 10 lane monstrosities, with 8 or more flyovers, standing 20 stories high in places like in Houston and Dallas.