5 ms·

There are several states that have an EV registration surcharge that replaces gas tax. It's not popular with the pro-EV crowd.

vel0city 10mo ago
I'm fine with a decently fair registration tax to offset the gas taxes, but the one in my state is the equivalent of 1,000 gallons of gas for the state gas taxes. If the car was a 35mpg hybrid that would be 35,000mi of equivalent driving. This is incredibly unfair.
- Loughla 10mo ago
  If I owned an ev for 3 years, the tax means I save money.
  - vel0city 10mo ago
    This is a yearly tax. So that would be the same as 105,000mi in three years meanwhile the average car probably only drove ~37,500 in that time period.
- pclmulqdq 10mo ago
  35,000 mi of driving is not anywhere near out of the question if you're a daily commuter who takes road trips once in a while. If you're driving a truck or a non-hybrid, it's also a lot less mileage. It sounds like this is actually close to what you would be expected to use.
  - vel0city 10mo ago
    It's far away from the average of around 12,000. Few cars drive 35,000mi.
    - pclmulqdq 10mo ago
      The average driver also doesn't get 35 mpg driving regularly. The average driver probably gets around 20 mpg, and that would make this distance about 15000 mi.
      - vel0city 10mo ago
        The kind of people choosing an EV wouldn't get a 20mpg car, it's an unfair comparison.
        pclmulqdq 10mo ago
        They also chose a car that's extremely heavy (by virtue of the battery), so they create more road wear per mile than the average American car. The point is that tax rate seems fair.
        vel0city 10mo ago
        The ICE I would have picked otherwise is only 100kg lighter and gets 40mpg.
        turkeyboi 10mo ago
        And you’d be paying gas tax
        vel0city 10mo ago
        Far less than what I'm paying with the EV, which is my point!
    - caseysoftware 10mo ago
      > With that information, the British newspaper calculated that BEVs [battery electric vehicles] could expose roads to 2.24 times more damage than gas cars. If that's true, then 12-15k miles in an EV would be equivalent to 27-33k miles in a gas car.. so "taxes equivalent to 35k miles" isn't far off. Ref: https://www.autoevolution.com/news/bevs-could-also-damage-roads-way-more-than-ice-cars-due-to-weight-217255.html https://www.autoevolution.com/news/bevs-could-also-damage-ro...
      - deleted 10mo ago
        [deleted]
  - mikestew 10mo ago
    Just because a small percentage of drivers drive that much each year doesn’t make it a reasonable number for the general case. It sounds like this is actually close to what you would be expected to use. Not even close to what the average driver drives.
    - pclmulqdq 10mo ago
      The average American driver gets about 25 mpg and drives about 15-20k miles. That's exactly in line with the tax rate here.
      - rjrjrjrj 10mo ago
        Seems unlikely. 55 miles/day, 365 days a year? Also, look at lease mileage limits.
      - vel0city 10mo ago
        The average American car does not drive 20k miles. 12,500 is the average yearly mileage. And it's an EV, a closer comparison should be something more like a hybrid. It's not a giant truck.
        turkeyboi 10mo ago
        But it weighs as much as a giant truck
        vel0city 10mo ago
        It weighs about as much as the smallest base model F150. Optioned out models and other trim levels easily hit 1,000lbs+ heavier. Meanwhile that base model equivalent weight F150 gets about 24mpg and thus pays about half as much gas tax while doing the same amount of damage driving the average mileage. Further proving my point, I pay twice the state fuel tax for an equivalent weight pickup truck. Is that fair? But also, isn't the whole point of the pickup truck to load it down? If all it's doing is carrying 1-4 people it's whole life, seems like a lot of waste. I'm told people buy trucks to actually load them down a lot and not just commute and get groceries? So while it's about the same weight dry and unloaded shouldn't it's weight really be quite a bit more in practice? Or are we all agreeing now trucks are just for commuting and getting groceries?
  - caseysoftware 10mo ago
    > With that information, the British newspaper calculated that BEVs [battery electric vehicles] could expose roads to 2.24 times more damage than gas cars. If that's true, then 12-15k miles in an EV would be equivalent to 27-33k miles in a gas car.. so "taxes equivalent to 35k miles" isn't far off. Ref: https://www.autoevolution.com/news/bevs-could-also-damage-roads-way-more-than-ice-cars-due-to-weight-217255.html https://www.autoevolution.com/news/bevs-could-also-damage-ro...
- caseysoftware 10mo ago
  The EV tax applies to people who a) casue a disproportionate amount of wear & tear on the roads vs ICE vehicles and b) are generally higher income in the state. When you look at taxation from a "charge the people who use it" or the "the rich should pay more" perspective, this appears to address both. Is the problem simply that you want to pay less taxes?
  - vel0city 10mo ago
    No, I just want to pay a fair amount of taxes. Honestly the gas taxes should be increased or we should move to a tax structure where it's mileage, weight, and emissions based. Paying 3x the same taxes while having less externalities isn't fair.
    - caseysoftware 10mo ago
      As I've cited elsewhere on this thread: > With that information, the British newspaper calculated that BEVs [battery electric vehicles] could expose roads to 2.24 times more damage than gas cars. Ref: https://www.autoevolution.com/news/bevs-could-also-damage-roads-way-more-than-ice-cars-due-to-weight-217255.html https://www.autoevolution.com/news/bevs-could-also-damage-ro... If that's true, then 12-15k miles in an EV would be equivalent to 27-33k miles in a gas car in the externalities of road wear & tear.. so "taxes equivalent to 35k miles" is at most 25% higher in a "damage per mile equivalent" but could be as little as 6% using the averages. If your actual mileage is over 15625/year, then you're paying less than the equivalent. What's your annual mileage?
      - vel0city 10mo ago
        27 isn't 35 no matter how many times you say it is. > If your actual mileage is over 15625/year, then you're paying less than the equivalent. The average is less than that by a decent bit, so more than half of US cars are paying more even with your unproven, contorted math based on some estimates done once in the 70s and never really looked into closely again. It's also assuming the difference in weight. The closest hybrid I would have bought instead is only like 100kg lighter than my EV. And it gets like 40mpg, better than 35mpg. It would also mean semi trucks should pay like 20,000x more in registration fees. Does this make sense? > What's your annual mileage? Less than 15k on that car (like most people), so even with your assumed math it's overpaying.
notatoad 10mo ago
it's pretty silly to have a tax that incentivizes the opposite behaviour to what you want. registration surcharges benefit the people who drive the most, at the expense of the people who drive the least. if you're trying to pay for wear and tear on the roads, or reduce congestion, making people feel like they have to "get their moneys worth" on the registration surcharge really isn't helping.

vel0city 10mo ago

I'm fine with a decently fair registration tax to offset the gas taxes, but the one in my state is the equivalent of 1,000 gallons of gas for the state gas taxes. If the car was a 35mpg hybrid that would be 35,000mi of equivalent driving. This is incredibly unfair.

Loughla 10mo ago
If I owned an ev for 3 years, the tax means I save money.
- vel0city 10mo ago
  This is a yearly tax. So that would be the same as 105,000mi in three years meanwhile the average car probably only drove ~37,500 in that time period.
pclmulqdq 10mo ago
35,000 mi of driving is not anywhere near out of the question if you're a daily commuter who takes road trips once in a while. If you're driving a truck or a non-hybrid, it's also a lot less mileage. It sounds like this is actually close to what you would be expected to use.
- vel0city 10mo ago
  It's far away from the average of around 12,000. Few cars drive 35,000mi.
  - pclmulqdq 10mo ago
    The average driver also doesn't get 35 mpg driving regularly. The average driver probably gets around 20 mpg, and that would make this distance about 15000 mi.
    - vel0city 10mo ago
      The kind of people choosing an EV wouldn't get a 20mpg car, it's an unfair comparison.
      - pclmulqdq 10mo ago
        They also chose a car that's extremely heavy (by virtue of the battery), so they create more road wear per mile than the average American car. The point is that tax rate seems fair.
        vel0city 10mo ago
        The ICE I would have picked otherwise is only 100kg lighter and gets 40mpg.
        turkeyboi 10mo ago
        And you’d be paying gas tax
        vel0city 10mo ago
        Far less than what I'm paying with the EV, which is my point!
  - caseysoftware 10mo ago
    > With that information, the British newspaper calculated that BEVs [battery electric vehicles] could expose roads to 2.24 times more damage than gas cars. If that's true, then 12-15k miles in an EV would be equivalent to 27-33k miles in a gas car.. so "taxes equivalent to 35k miles" isn't far off. Ref: https://www.autoevolution.com/news/bevs-could-also-damage-roads-way-more-than-ice-cars-due-to-weight-217255.html https://www.autoevolution.com/news/bevs-could-also-damage-ro...
    - deleted 10mo ago
      [deleted]
- mikestew 10mo ago
  Just because a small percentage of drivers drive that much each year doesn’t make it a reasonable number for the general case. It sounds like this is actually close to what you would be expected to use. Not even close to what the average driver drives.
  - pclmulqdq 10mo ago
    The average American driver gets about 25 mpg and drives about 15-20k miles. That's exactly in line with the tax rate here.
    - rjrjrjrj 10mo ago
      Seems unlikely. 55 miles/day, 365 days a year? Also, look at lease mileage limits.
    - vel0city 10mo ago
      The average American car does not drive 20k miles. 12,500 is the average yearly mileage. And it's an EV, a closer comparison should be something more like a hybrid. It's not a giant truck.
      - turkeyboi 10mo ago
        But it weighs as much as a giant truck
        vel0city 10mo ago
        It weighs about as much as the smallest base model F150. Optioned out models and other trim levels easily hit 1,000lbs+ heavier. Meanwhile that base model equivalent weight F150 gets about 24mpg and thus pays about half as much gas tax while doing the same amount of damage driving the average mileage. Further proving my point, I pay twice the state fuel tax for an equivalent weight pickup truck. Is that fair? But also, isn't the whole point of the pickup truck to load it down? If all it's doing is carrying 1-4 people it's whole life, seems like a lot of waste. I'm told people buy trucks to actually load them down a lot and not just commute and get groceries? So while it's about the same weight dry and unloaded shouldn't it's weight really be quite a bit more in practice? Or are we all agreeing now trucks are just for commuting and getting groceries?
- caseysoftware 10mo ago
  > With that information, the British newspaper calculated that BEVs [battery electric vehicles] could expose roads to 2.24 times more damage than gas cars. If that's true, then 12-15k miles in an EV would be equivalent to 27-33k miles in a gas car.. so "taxes equivalent to 35k miles" isn't far off. Ref: https://www.autoevolution.com/news/bevs-could-also-damage-roads-way-more-than-ice-cars-due-to-weight-217255.html https://www.autoevolution.com/news/bevs-could-also-damage-ro...
caseysoftware 10mo ago
The EV tax applies to people who a) casue a disproportionate amount of wear & tear on the roads vs ICE vehicles and b) are generally higher income in the state. When you look at taxation from a "charge the people who use it" or the "the rich should pay more" perspective, this appears to address both. Is the problem simply that you want to pay less taxes?
- vel0city 10mo ago
  No, I just want to pay a fair amount of taxes. Honestly the gas taxes should be increased or we should move to a tax structure where it's mileage, weight, and emissions based. Paying 3x the same taxes while having less externalities isn't fair.
  - caseysoftware 10mo ago
    As I've cited elsewhere on this thread: > With that information, the British newspaper calculated that BEVs [battery electric vehicles] could expose roads to 2.24 times more damage than gas cars. Ref: https://www.autoevolution.com/news/bevs-could-also-damage-roads-way-more-than-ice-cars-due-to-weight-217255.html https://www.autoevolution.com/news/bevs-could-also-damage-ro... If that's true, then 12-15k miles in an EV would be equivalent to 27-33k miles in a gas car in the externalities of road wear & tear.. so "taxes equivalent to 35k miles" is at most 25% higher in a "damage per mile equivalent" but could be as little as 6% using the averages. If your actual mileage is over 15625/year, then you're paying less than the equivalent. What's your annual mileage?
    - vel0city 10mo ago
      27 isn't 35 no matter how many times you say it is. > If your actual mileage is over 15625/year, then you're paying less than the equivalent. The average is less than that by a decent bit, so more than half of US cars are paying more even with your unproven, contorted math based on some estimates done once in the 70s and never really looked into closely again. It's also assuming the difference in weight. The closest hybrid I would have bought instead is only like 100kg lighter than my EV. And it gets like 40mpg, better than 35mpg. It would also mean semi trucks should pay like 20,000x more in registration fees. Does this make sense? > What's your annual mileage? Less than 15k on that car (like most people), so even with your assumed math it's overpaying.

notatoad 10mo ago

it's pretty silly to have a tax that incentivizes the opposite behaviour to what you want. registration surcharges benefit the people who drive the most, at the expense of the people who drive the least. if you're trying to pay for wear and tear on the roads, or reduce congestion, making people feel like they have to "get their moneys worth" on the registration surcharge really isn't helping.