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> this “madness” today is nothing new What is with this tendency to downplay the current drastic escalations? It feels like a kind of hipster denialism - "I wa

> this “madness” today is nothing new What is with this tendency to downplay the current drastic escalations? It feels like a kind of hipster denialism - "I was complaining about the US being a police state before it was cool" but also if it's this is "nothing new" then there's nothing to really earnest worry about, right? How hard is it to acknowledge that we have been gradually losing our rights AND that the Trumpist bonfire is a marked departure into something much more rapid? Surely you can see the difference between a society where occasional flagrant abuses happen but the majority can still speak out about them, versus a society where abuses are routine and anybody who speaks out becomes a target at scale?

throw-12-16 10mo ago
None of that changes the fact that the Patriot Act was the beginning of the militarized US police state.
- mindslight 10mo ago
  DEA? ATF? The fact that the "Patriot" Act was basically written and ready long before it was put up for a vote? But of course now I'm on the other side of the argument. The point is that even though it's a long arc, this doesn't invalidate the current urgency. "Slow at first, then all at once"
  - throw-12-16 10mo ago
    “All at once” was 2001 for a lot of people. Latinos are the current targets, but they weren’t the first.
    - mindslight 10mo ago
      If you set your metric at targeting and marginalizing racial groups, you undermine your point even harder re "Patriot" Act being the start. But also, am I supposed to come away with the conclusion that this is all in line with business as usual and there is nothing to worry about as long as I am white?
      - throw-12-16 10mo ago
        You are conflating America being racist as hell with the establishment of the surveillance state post-9/11, which was largely focused on Arabs. America has been a racist cesspool for hundreds of years, but since 2001 it has also become a highly advanced surveillance state that has militarized its own police force. You may not like it, but this has been developing for 25 years and has just now started to (barely) affect white people.
        mindslight 10mo ago
        You've skipped over my two counterexamples of the DEA and the ATF, and their supporting laws criminalizing substances and tools. Those have been around much longer than merely 2001, and had already created some pretty totalitarian spectacles of government attacking the People. Also driving this conversation towards race reeks of race-to-the-bottom "privilege" politics. Which is why I facetiously asked if your intention is to encourage white people to become less concerned.
        throw-12-16 10mo ago
        Sorry I saw you self identify as a Libertarian and lost interest. Habit I retained from University.
        mindslight 10mo ago
        I did no such thing. I said "libertarian" - note the small 'l'. The capital-L party has preemptively defeated itself with an over-indulgence in axiomatic rightist thinking. This makes it so its large scale effects will only ever result in a changing of the government to autocratic corporate rule. And FWIW I only threw that out to make a speed bump for the fascists who want to write off everyone disagreeing with them as some blue haired progressive. You can try actually addressing my points, either in this tiny thread or in the more substantial branch above. I promise I will try to not dump knee jerk reflexive dismissals at you the way "Libertarians" often to.
scarecrowbob 10mo ago
Well, I think the point it is even beyond "how many grains of sand is a pile," which seems like a legitimate point to me. If we don't understand how we got here, it's really hard to figure out hat to do, so pretending as if someone flipped a switch in January of 2025 is not helpful. I say this as a person who has been pepper sprayed by DHS while resisting ICE: the conditions to led to the current bonfire have a lot to do with centrist folks piling up wood as if could never be lit. If you ignore how we got here you will be unable to understand where really are.
- throw-12-16 10mo ago
  Many of the people on this forum were the ones piling the wood. The data harvesting of the US surveillance state was 100% enabled by SV. Guys like Zuckerberg, Page, and Brin are modern day Oppenheimers in all the worst ways.
- mindslight 10mo ago
  I'd say someone did flip a switch in 2025 - the rejection of the standard norms of good faith execution of all three branches of government. The government has always been authoritarian. But it had been predominately bureaucratic authoritarianism, while now it's driven by autocratic authoritarianism. I say this as a libertarian who's right there with you on the "piling up wood". There are many angles from which to analyze how we got here. Yes, the "centrists" supporting lazy authoritarian laws and agencies because they couldn't bother thinking one step ahead to how they'd be abused. The sprawling surveillance industry pointed out by a sibling comment. Narrower issues of destruction of the fairness doctrine and campaign finance limits. Even many of the refrains of the Trumpists point to problems that were slowly allowed to fester until they reached a breaking point (although as usual for Republicans, the answer they've been stage-managed into is completely self-defeating). For all of these things it's understandable to want to say "I told you so" - for catharsis, and trying to establish some authority of having a larger context of what direction we need to head in. But none of that justifies downplaying the situation we're currently staring down, which is what I take issue with. (also re being pepper sprayed: what's left of your country thanks you for your service)
bdangubic 10mo ago
Cause what you are doing is sensationalism and exaggeration. “Abuses are routine” - back this up with actual numbers vs. making a crazy blanket statement like that cause you saw 13 clickbait articles in December. You are 100% right, we have been (not so) gradually losing our rights and Trump et al isn’t really lighting any bonfires, the country has been burning for decades… it is just that the current fires are broadcasted to a wider audience with minute-by-minute play-by-play. and while most people are falling for this shit again (see 2016-2020) the current admin is lining their pockets (which is the one and only goal they have…)

throw-12-16 10mo ago

None of that changes the fact that the Patriot Act was the beginning of the militarized US police state.

mindslight 10mo ago
DEA? ATF? The fact that the "Patriot" Act was basically written and ready long before it was put up for a vote? But of course now I'm on the other side of the argument. The point is that even though it's a long arc, this doesn't invalidate the current urgency. "Slow at first, then all at once"
- throw-12-16 10mo ago
  “All at once” was 2001 for a lot of people. Latinos are the current targets, but they weren’t the first.
  - mindslight 10mo ago
    If you set your metric at targeting and marginalizing racial groups, you undermine your point even harder re "Patriot" Act being the start. But also, am I supposed to come away with the conclusion that this is all in line with business as usual and there is nothing to worry about as long as I am white?
    - throw-12-16 10mo ago
      You are conflating America being racist as hell with the establishment of the surveillance state post-9/11, which was largely focused on Arabs. America has been a racist cesspool for hundreds of years, but since 2001 it has also become a highly advanced surveillance state that has militarized its own police force. You may not like it, but this has been developing for 25 years and has just now started to (barely) affect white people.
      - mindslight 10mo ago
        You've skipped over my two counterexamples of the DEA and the ATF, and their supporting laws criminalizing substances and tools. Those have been around much longer than merely 2001, and had already created some pretty totalitarian spectacles of government attacking the People. Also driving this conversation towards race reeks of race-to-the-bottom "privilege" politics. Which is why I facetiously asked if your intention is to encourage white people to become less concerned.
        throw-12-16 10mo ago
        Sorry I saw you self identify as a Libertarian and lost interest. Habit I retained from University.
        mindslight 10mo ago
        I did no such thing. I said "libertarian" - note the small 'l'. The capital-L party has preemptively defeated itself with an over-indulgence in axiomatic rightist thinking. This makes it so its large scale effects will only ever result in a changing of the government to autocratic corporate rule. And FWIW I only threw that out to make a speed bump for the fascists who want to write off everyone disagreeing with them as some blue haired progressive. You can try actually addressing my points, either in this tiny thread or in the more substantial branch above. I promise I will try to not dump knee jerk reflexive dismissals at you the way "Libertarians" often to.

scarecrowbob 10mo ago

Well, I think the point it is even beyond "how many grains of sand is a pile," which seems like a legitimate point to me. If we don't understand how we got here, it's really hard to figure out hat to do, so pretending as if someone flipped a switch in January of 2025 is not helpful. I say this as a person who has been pepper sprayed by DHS while resisting ICE: the conditions to led to the current bonfire have a lot to do with centrist folks piling up wood as if could never be lit. If you ignore how we got here you will be unable to understand where really are.

throw-12-16 10mo ago
Many of the people on this forum were the ones piling the wood. The data harvesting of the US surveillance state was 100% enabled by SV. Guys like Zuckerberg, Page, and Brin are modern day Oppenheimers in all the worst ways.
mindslight 10mo ago
I'd say someone did flip a switch in 2025 - the rejection of the standard norms of good faith execution of all three branches of government. The government has always been authoritarian. But it had been predominately bureaucratic authoritarianism, while now it's driven by autocratic authoritarianism. I say this as a libertarian who's right there with you on the "piling up wood". There are many angles from which to analyze how we got here. Yes, the "centrists" supporting lazy authoritarian laws and agencies because they couldn't bother thinking one step ahead to how they'd be abused. The sprawling surveillance industry pointed out by a sibling comment. Narrower issues of destruction of the fairness doctrine and campaign finance limits. Even many of the refrains of the Trumpists point to problems that were slowly allowed to fester until they reached a breaking point (although as usual for Republicans, the answer they've been stage-managed into is completely self-defeating). For all of these things it's understandable to want to say "I told you so" - for catharsis, and trying to establish some authority of having a larger context of what direction we need to head in. But none of that justifies downplaying the situation we're currently staring down, which is what I take issue with. (also re being pepper sprayed: what's left of your country thanks you for your service)

bdangubic 10mo ago

Cause what you are doing is sensationalism and exaggeration. “Abuses are routine” - back this up with actual numbers vs. making a crazy blanket statement like that cause you saw 13 clickbait articles in December. You are 100% right, we have been (not so) gradually losing our rights and Trump et al isn’t really lighting any bonfires, the country has been burning for decades… it is just that the current fires are broadcasted to a wider audience with minute-by-minute play-by-play. and while most people are falling for this shit again (see 2016-2020) the current admin is lining their pockets (which is the one and only goal they have…)