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That sounds like something you’d read in a Facebook comment. This is government-sanctioned slavery, and I strongly doubt that it would serve as a deterrent. Pe

That sounds like something you’d read in a Facebook comment. This is government-sanctioned slavery, and I strongly doubt that it would serve as a deterrent. People routinely put much more on the line for much less.

mr_toad 10mo ago
There’s a lot of research of people for whom punishment obviously didn’t act as a deterrent, and unsurprisingly this research concludes that the prospect of punishment doesn’t act as a deterrent. There is no research I’m aware of on people for whom the prospect of punishment did act as a deterrent (i.e. people who decided not to commit the crime). So I argue that there is a very big selection bias in literature surrounding the effectiveness of punishment as a deterrent .
- f1shy 10mo ago
  AFAIK, this is a (dangerous and misleading) simplification. Punishment absolutely works as deterrent. Boy I know people that would absolutely forge the tax declaration, if it wasn't a terrible fine if they do! The key point is the probability of the punishment being enforced. There is a trade off calculation going on, like "I could get 5 years prison and 10 grand fine... IF they catch me!". Studies suggest, that if you have 100% probability of being caught, then the punishment is extremely good deterrent.
- Closi 10mo ago
  > There is no research I’m aware of on people for whom the prospect of punishment did act as a deterrent (i.e. people who decided not to commit the crime). Surely this can’t be true - as a trivial example I would be surprised if removing parking fines wouldn’t increase parking violations, or if Singapore stopped punishing littering that it wouldn’t affect the amount of littering etc Maybe the difference between a 10 year or 20 year sentence for murder doesn’t make much difference, but if murder had no punishment at all I would be very surprised if that wouldn’t raise the murder rate!
  - Throaway198712 10mo ago
    What he's trying to say is that most people crimes under the assumption that they won't get caught, not that, if they get caught, they can withstand the punishment.
    - Closi 10mo ago
      In the 'purely rational' crimes, it's going to be some sort of function of both right? The expected benefit, the risk that you get caught, and the severity of the punishment. While I agree that people conducting corporate fraud think they will get away with it - I don't agree that the long sentences won't act as a deterrence. If you set the sentence for these sorts of crimes to 1 year rather than 15+, that completely changes the risk profile for people who think there is a 90% chance they will get away with it.
      - Throaway198712 10mo ago
        It's simpler than that. You just don't think about getting caught, it's not part of the plan. Sentence length has a small effect on crime rates, but what really matters is enforcement levels. If you have a 99% chance of getting caught & punished, you don't bother.
- rcxdude 10mo ago
  A lot of research on this topic tends to look at correlations between crime rates and harshness of punishments, which would tend to include this effect.
- unparagoned 10mo ago
  Think of it this way if the sentence for speeding was life in prison, do you really think that wouldn’t have any effect on people speeding. I think this just highlights how stupid the idea is that punishment doesn’t act as a deterrent
  - salawat 10mo ago
    I think if the punishment for speeding was life in prison, the entire system would be in such a shambles what would make sense is burning the entire country down. Your assertion is not the slam dunk you think it is.
beAbU 10mo ago
The US constitution explicitly allows for this (prisoner slavery) so there's that
- stavros 10mo ago
  Imagine "someone two hundred years ago said it was OK" being valid ethical justification.
  - bdangubic 10mo ago
    ethical - no. legal - yes.
  - philwelch 10mo ago
    Criminals need to be isolated from peaceful society anyway, and if we’re going to the expense of warehousing them, the least we can expect is for them to contribute something back. The ethical justification for prison labor is obvious and the analogy to heritable chattel slavery is ludicrous.
    - auggierose 10mo ago
      Society is not peaceful. It’s just that certain kinds of violence are legal.
    - unparagoned 10mo ago
      You don’t really want perverse incentives, like that example where American judges were given kickbacks to imprison kids, so they found innocent kids guilty. I think when money is involved that sort of stuff is much more likely.
      - philwelch 10mo ago
        That’s fine. Prison guards, like all public employees, shouldn’t be unionized and prison labor should be earmarked either for restitution or public use (picking up highway litter, manual construction labor for roads and government buildings, etc.)
7492632928 10mo ago
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yunohn 10mo ago
Ah then I trust you are completely aware that federal prisons already make prisoners work for their keep, and the privatization of prisons and their lobbying has led to a vicious cycle of imprisonment for cheap prison slave labor? Of course, those prisoners aren’t billionaire healthcare CEOs, so maybe not…
btreecat 10mo ago
Unfortunately government sanctioned slavery does still exist in the US prison system.
deleted 10mo ago
[deleted]
vlovich123 10mo ago
First there’s already government sanctioned slavery for the poor. At least it feels more like poetic justice for it to be applied to white collar crime and maybe that might spur changes to make prison labor more restorative rather than exploitative.

mr_toad 10mo ago

There’s a lot of research of people for whom punishment obviously didn’t act as a deterrent, and unsurprisingly this research concludes that the prospect of punishment doesn’t act as a deterrent. There is no research I’m aware of on people for whom the prospect of punishment did act as a deterrent (i.e. people who decided not to commit the crime). So I argue that there is a very big selection bias in literature surrounding the effectiveness of punishment as a deterrent .

f1shy 10mo ago
AFAIK, this is a (dangerous and misleading) simplification. Punishment absolutely works as deterrent. Boy I know people that would absolutely forge the tax declaration, if it wasn't a terrible fine if they do! The key point is the probability of the punishment being enforced. There is a trade off calculation going on, like "I could get 5 years prison and 10 grand fine... IF they catch me!". Studies suggest, that if you have 100% probability of being caught, then the punishment is extremely good deterrent.
Closi 10mo ago
> There is no research I’m aware of on people for whom the prospect of punishment did act as a deterrent (i.e. people who decided not to commit the crime). Surely this can’t be true - as a trivial example I would be surprised if removing parking fines wouldn’t increase parking violations, or if Singapore stopped punishing littering that it wouldn’t affect the amount of littering etc Maybe the difference between a 10 year or 20 year sentence for murder doesn’t make much difference, but if murder had no punishment at all I would be very surprised if that wouldn’t raise the murder rate!
- Throaway198712 10mo ago
  What he's trying to say is that most people crimes under the assumption that they won't get caught, not that, if they get caught, they can withstand the punishment.
  - Closi 10mo ago
    In the 'purely rational' crimes, it's going to be some sort of function of both right? The expected benefit, the risk that you get caught, and the severity of the punishment. While I agree that people conducting corporate fraud think they will get away with it - I don't agree that the long sentences won't act as a deterrence. If you set the sentence for these sorts of crimes to 1 year rather than 15+, that completely changes the risk profile for people who think there is a 90% chance they will get away with it.
    - Throaway198712 10mo ago
      It's simpler than that. You just don't think about getting caught, it's not part of the plan. Sentence length has a small effect on crime rates, but what really matters is enforcement levels. If you have a 99% chance of getting caught & punished, you don't bother.
rcxdude 10mo ago
A lot of research on this topic tends to look at correlations between crime rates and harshness of punishments, which would tend to include this effect.
unparagoned 10mo ago
Think of it this way if the sentence for speeding was life in prison, do you really think that wouldn’t have any effect on people speeding. I think this just highlights how stupid the idea is that punishment doesn’t act as a deterrent
- salawat 10mo ago
  I think if the punishment for speeding was life in prison, the entire system would be in such a shambles what would make sense is burning the entire country down. Your assertion is not the slam dunk you think it is.

beAbU 10mo ago

The US constitution explicitly allows for this (prisoner slavery) so there's that

stavros 10mo ago
Imagine "someone two hundred years ago said it was OK" being valid ethical justification.
- bdangubic 10mo ago
  ethical - no. legal - yes.
- philwelch 10mo ago
  Criminals need to be isolated from peaceful society anyway, and if we’re going to the expense of warehousing them, the least we can expect is for them to contribute something back. The ethical justification for prison labor is obvious and the analogy to heritable chattel slavery is ludicrous.
  - auggierose 10mo ago
    Society is not peaceful. It’s just that certain kinds of violence are legal.
  - unparagoned 10mo ago
    You don’t really want perverse incentives, like that example where American judges were given kickbacks to imprison kids, so they found innocent kids guilty. I think when money is involved that sort of stuff is much more likely.
    - philwelch 10mo ago
      That’s fine. Prison guards, like all public employees, shouldn’t be unionized and prison labor should be earmarked either for restitution or public use (picking up highway litter, manual construction labor for roads and government buildings, etc.)

7492632928 10mo ago

[dead]

yunohn 10mo ago

Ah then I trust you are completely aware that federal prisons already make prisoners work for their keep, and the privatization of prisons and their lobbying has led to a vicious cycle of imprisonment for cheap prison slave labor? Of course, those prisoners aren’t billionaire healthcare CEOs, so maybe not…

btreecat 10mo ago

Unfortunately government sanctioned slavery does still exist in the US prison system.

deleted 10mo ago

[deleted]

vlovich123 10mo ago

First there’s already government sanctioned slavery for the poor. At least it feels more like poetic justice for it to be applied to white collar crime and maybe that might spur changes to make prison labor more restorative rather than exploitative.