5 ms·

I didn’t really understand the other thread, nor did I know who Rob Pike is. Based on this, it looks like he got an automated email from a harmless experiment a

by andy99 10mo ago

I didn’t really understand the other thread, nor did I know who Rob Pike is. Based on this, it looks like he got an automated email from a harmless experiment and had a hissy fit about it?

throw20251220 10mo ago
Yes, it does look like you didn’t understand. I will help you. Start here: https://www.truthdig.com/articles/the-ecological-cost-of-ai-is-much-higher-than-you-think/ https://www.truthdig.com/articles/the-ecological-cost-of-ai-...
- andy12_ 10mo ago
  I don't care about the supposed ecological consequences of AI. If we need more water, we build more desalination plants. If we need more electricity, we build more nuclear reactors. This is purely a technological problem and not a moral one.
  - throw20251226 10mo ago
    [flagged]
  - lokar 10mo ago
    Clean water is a public good, it is required for basic human survival. It is needed to grow crops to feed people. Both of these uses depend on fairly cheap water, in many many places the supply of sufficiently cheap water is already constrained. This is causing a shortage for both basic human needs, and agriculture. Who will pay for the desalination plant construction? Who will pay for the operation? If the AI companies are ready to pay the full marginal cost of this "new water", and not free-load on the already insufficient supply needed for more important uses, then fine. But I very much doubt that is what will happen.
    - simonw 10mo ago
      The data center companies frequently pay for upgrades to the local water systems. https://www.hermiston.gov/publicworks/page/hermiston-water-service-agreement-aws-faq https://www.hermiston.gov/publicworks/page/hermiston-water-s... - "AWS is covering all construction costs associated with the water service agreement" https://www.thedalles.org/news_detail_T4_R180.php https://www.thedalles.org/news_detail_T4_R180.php - "The fees paid by Google have funded essential upgrades to our water systems, ensuring reliable service and addressing the City's growing needs. Additionally, Google continues to pay for its water use and contributes to infrastructure projects that exceed the requirements of its facilities." https://commerce.idaho.gov/press-releases/meta-announces-kuna-as-location-of-new-data-center/ https://commerce.idaho.gov/press-releases/meta-announces-kun... - "As part of the company’s commitment to Kuna, Meta is investing approximately $50 million in a new water and sewer system for the city. Infrastructure will be constructed by Meta and dedicated to the City of Kuna to own and operate."
      - lokar 10mo ago
        For desalination, the important part is paying the ongoing cost. The opex is much higher, and it's not fair to just average that into the supply for everyone to pay.
        simonw 10mo ago
        Are any data centers using desalinated water? I thought that was a shockingly expensive and hence very rare process. (I asked ChatGPT and it said that some of the Gulf state data centers do.) They do use treated (aka drinking) water, but that's a relatively inexpensive process which should be easily covered by the extra cash they shovel into their water systems on an annual basis. Andy wrote a section about that here: https://andymasley.substack.com/i/175834975/how-big-of-a-deal-is-it-that-data-centers-use-potable-water https://andymasley.substack.com/i/175834975/how-big-of-a-dea...
        lokar 10mo ago
        Read the comment I replied to, they proposed that since desalination is possible, there can be no meaningful shortage of water. And yes, many places have plenty of water. After some Capex improvements to the local system, a datacenter is often net-helpful, as they spread the fixed cost of the water system cost out over more gallons delivered. But many places don't have lots of water to spare.
  - throw20251220 10mo ago
    There were people before “ai” in other industries who were like “I don’t care about ecological consequences of my actions”. We as society have turned them into law-abiding citizens. You will be there too. Don’t worry. Time will come. You will be regulated. Same as cryptocurrencies, chemical, oil and gas, …
    - andy12_ 10mo ago
      If you were capable of time travel and you could go to the past and convince world government of the evil oil and gas industries, and that their expansion should be prevented, would you have done it? Would you have prevented the technological and sociatal advances that came from oil and gas to avoid their ecological consequences? If you answer yes, I don't think we can agree on anything. If you answer no, I think you are a hypocrite.
      - throw20251220 10mo ago
        Oil and gas is regulated. Took some time but we have gotten there.
        andy12_ 10mo ago
        In which sense is it regulated? Are they regulated in any way that matters for this discussion? Have their ecological consequences been avoided by regulation? The oil and gas industries continue to be the biggest culprits of climate change, and that cannot be changed by law. If data centers were "regulated" would that make you happy? Even if those data centers continued to use the same amount of electricity and the same amount of water?
- MagicMoonlight 10mo ago
  Where does this "AI uses water" meme come from? It's being shared with increasing hysteria, but data centres don't burn water, or whatever the meme says. They use electricity and cooling systems.
  - simonw 10mo ago
    It's mostly not a real issue. I think it's holding firm because it's novel - saying "data centers use a lot of electricity" isn't a new message, so it doesn't resonate with people. "Did you know they're using millions of liters of water too!" is a more interesting message. People are also very bad at evaluating if millions of liters of water is a lot or not. My favourite exploration of this issue is from Hank Green: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_c6MWk7PQc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_c6MWk7PQc - this post by Andy Masley is useful too: https://andymasley.substack.com/p/the-ai-water-issue-is-fake https://andymasley.substack.com/p/the-ai-water-issue-is-fake
  - throw20251220 10mo ago
    [flagged]
  - Eggpants 10mo ago
    At least perform a tiny bit of research before you parrot VC talking points on a VC controlled message board. Yes data centers use a shit ton of water daily https://www.eesi.org/articles/view/data-centers-and-water-consumption https://www.eesi.org/articles/view/data-centers-and-water-co...
eviks 10mo ago
If you understand neither the content not the context, you have nothing to base the look assessment on
LastTrain 10mo ago
Correct. You don't understand.
beej71 10mo ago
You probably used UTF-8 encoding to write that. He co-designed that, among other things like the Go programming language. Used to work at Bell Labs.
doginasuit 10mo ago
I also don't understand the reaction. The AI Village seems to be based on a flawed understanding of LLMs and what they are capable of but at least it is an open project and useful as knowledge gathering. Annoying spam emails are about what I would expect, but it is useful as an earnest demonstration of their effectiveness. I can understand anger at the direction of the tech in general, and there is something grotesque about the emails, but I can find much more disturbing spam if I go check my inbox. It seems like an overreaction.
imiric 10mo ago
It doesn't matter who is on the receiving end of this. What matters is if this type of behavior is acceptable or not. Describing it as a "harmless experiment" and the reaction as a "hissy fit" shows a lack of critical thinking and empathy on your part.

by andy99 10mo ago

I didn’t really understand the other thread, nor did I know who Rob Pike is. Based on this, it looks like he got an automated email from a harmless experiment and had a hissy fit about it?

throw20251220 10mo ago

Yes, it does look like you didn’t understand. I will help you. Start here: https://www.truthdig.com/articles/the-ecological-cost-of-ai-is-much-higher-than-you-think/ https://www.truthdig.com/articles/the-ecological-cost-of-ai-...

andy12_ 10mo ago
I don't care about the supposed ecological consequences of AI. If we need more water, we build more desalination plants. If we need more electricity, we build more nuclear reactors. This is purely a technological problem and not a moral one.
- throw20251226 10mo ago
  [flagged]
- lokar 10mo ago
  Clean water is a public good, it is required for basic human survival. It is needed to grow crops to feed people. Both of these uses depend on fairly cheap water, in many many places the supply of sufficiently cheap water is already constrained. This is causing a shortage for both basic human needs, and agriculture. Who will pay for the desalination plant construction? Who will pay for the operation? If the AI companies are ready to pay the full marginal cost of this "new water", and not free-load on the already insufficient supply needed for more important uses, then fine. But I very much doubt that is what will happen.
  - simonw 10mo ago
    The data center companies frequently pay for upgrades to the local water systems. https://www.hermiston.gov/publicworks/page/hermiston-water-service-agreement-aws-faq https://www.hermiston.gov/publicworks/page/hermiston-water-s... - "AWS is covering all construction costs associated with the water service agreement" https://www.thedalles.org/news_detail_T4_R180.php https://www.thedalles.org/news_detail_T4_R180.php - "The fees paid by Google have funded essential upgrades to our water systems, ensuring reliable service and addressing the City's growing needs. Additionally, Google continues to pay for its water use and contributes to infrastructure projects that exceed the requirements of its facilities." https://commerce.idaho.gov/press-releases/meta-announces-kuna-as-location-of-new-data-center/ https://commerce.idaho.gov/press-releases/meta-announces-kun... - "As part of the company’s commitment to Kuna, Meta is investing approximately $50 million in a new water and sewer system for the city. Infrastructure will be constructed by Meta and dedicated to the City of Kuna to own and operate."
    - lokar 10mo ago
      For desalination, the important part is paying the ongoing cost. The opex is much higher, and it's not fair to just average that into the supply for everyone to pay.
      - simonw 10mo ago
        Are any data centers using desalinated water? I thought that was a shockingly expensive and hence very rare process. (I asked ChatGPT and it said that some of the Gulf state data centers do.) They do use treated (aka drinking) water, but that's a relatively inexpensive process which should be easily covered by the extra cash they shovel into their water systems on an annual basis. Andy wrote a section about that here: https://andymasley.substack.com/i/175834975/how-big-of-a-deal-is-it-that-data-centers-use-potable-water https://andymasley.substack.com/i/175834975/how-big-of-a-dea...
        lokar 10mo ago
        Read the comment I replied to, they proposed that since desalination is possible, there can be no meaningful shortage of water. And yes, many places have plenty of water. After some Capex improvements to the local system, a datacenter is often net-helpful, as they spread the fixed cost of the water system cost out over more gallons delivered. But many places don't have lots of water to spare.
- throw20251220 10mo ago
  There were people before “ai” in other industries who were like “I don’t care about ecological consequences of my actions”. We as society have turned them into law-abiding citizens. You will be there too. Don’t worry. Time will come. You will be regulated. Same as cryptocurrencies, chemical, oil and gas, …
  - andy12_ 10mo ago
    If you were capable of time travel and you could go to the past and convince world government of the evil oil and gas industries, and that their expansion should be prevented, would you have done it? Would you have prevented the technological and sociatal advances that came from oil and gas to avoid their ecological consequences? If you answer yes, I don't think we can agree on anything. If you answer no, I think you are a hypocrite.
    - throw20251220 10mo ago
      Oil and gas is regulated. Took some time but we have gotten there.
      - andy12_ 10mo ago
        In which sense is it regulated? Are they regulated in any way that matters for this discussion? Have their ecological consequences been avoided by regulation? The oil and gas industries continue to be the biggest culprits of climate change, and that cannot be changed by law. If data centers were "regulated" would that make you happy? Even if those data centers continued to use the same amount of electricity and the same amount of water?
MagicMoonlight 10mo ago
Where does this "AI uses water" meme come from? It's being shared with increasing hysteria, but data centres don't burn water, or whatever the meme says. They use electricity and cooling systems.
- simonw 10mo ago
  It's mostly not a real issue. I think it's holding firm because it's novel - saying "data centers use a lot of electricity" isn't a new message, so it doesn't resonate with people. "Did you know they're using millions of liters of water too!" is a more interesting message. People are also very bad at evaluating if millions of liters of water is a lot or not. My favourite exploration of this issue is from Hank Green: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_c6MWk7PQc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_c6MWk7PQc - this post by Andy Masley is useful too: https://andymasley.substack.com/p/the-ai-water-issue-is-fake https://andymasley.substack.com/p/the-ai-water-issue-is-fake
- throw20251220 10mo ago
  [flagged]
- Eggpants 10mo ago
  At least perform a tiny bit of research before you parrot VC talking points on a VC controlled message board. Yes data centers use a shit ton of water daily https://www.eesi.org/articles/view/data-centers-and-water-consumption https://www.eesi.org/articles/view/data-centers-and-water-co...

eviks 10mo ago

If you understand neither the content not the context, you have nothing to base the look assessment on

LastTrain 10mo ago

Correct. You don't understand.

beej71 10mo ago

You probably used UTF-8 encoding to write that. He co-designed that, among other things like the Go programming language. Used to work at Bell Labs.

doginasuit 10mo ago

I also don't understand the reaction. The AI Village seems to be based on a flawed understanding of LLMs and what they are capable of but at least it is an open project and useful as knowledge gathering. Annoying spam emails are about what I would expect, but it is useful as an earnest demonstration of their effectiveness. I can understand anger at the direction of the tech in general, and there is something grotesque about the emails, but I can find much more disturbing spam if I go check my inbox. It seems like an overreaction.

imiric 10mo ago

It doesn't matter who is on the receiving end of this. What matters is if this type of behavior is acceptable or not. Describing it as a "harmless experiment" and the reaction as a "hissy fit" shows a lack of critical thinking and empathy on your part.