4 ms·

I’ve always found this line of thinking to match up with drivers of old Land Rovers. The thinking goes they are brilliant because they are so easy to repair an

I’ve always found this line of thinking to match up with drivers of old Land Rovers. The thinking goes they are brilliant because they are so easy to repair and parts are easy to source globally. While that’s true, I much prefer to drive vehicles that don’t need repairs.

rowanG077 10mo ago
The problem is of course that no vehicles/devices as of now exist that are indestructible
tempsaasexample 10mo ago
True technically, but there's many people that almost enjoy working on their cars IF they are pleasant to work on. And some are. At that point the car is just an avenue for your hobby of working on cars. My parents have a Lexus RX400H (hybrid), that even for me as a car guy is a nightmare to work on. It's technically never had a fault since 2007 with 215k miles. But changing the spark plugs was probably the third hardest thing I've done with cars, only behind dropping a transmission and doing a head gasket job on other cars.
SV_BubbleTime 10mo ago
It would also be apt if the handover cost $10,000 but the engine cost $9000. My framework 13 is OKAY. But the reality of it is the economics just don’t make sense with their pricing. The biggest thing people can comment on the keyboard is easily replaceable. That’s cool and I love the idea, but any vendor could do that part.
- Ritewut 10mo ago
  I had a Framework mainboard die and I was able to replace it myself with a free replacement they sent me without need to throw away the laptop. The economics make sense when you consider they don't get the priority for chips or the volume discounts that a company like Dell would get from AMD or Intel. They are getting scraps and doing what they can to make it work.
  - SV_BubbleTime 10mo ago
    Is that a viable business model though? That they’ll always be a niche supplier with low-vokume issues, seems like a tough market. In fact, I think Dell or HP or Other could demolish Framework in a 1/2 second by offering a line that was even 50% the offering. By focusing on replaceable screens, keyboard, and standing the chassis for multiple boards and selling some parts they dry up FW’s moat with little effort.
    - gessha 10mo ago
      The same companies that can’t make a proper website to sell their products? Please. Framework’s got it in the bag. I don’t remember the number of times I typed dell.com or Lenovo.com, looked for a replacement for my 10-year old XPS, and came out extremely frustrated with the experience. Not to mention the recent copy-paste nonsense from Dell with their Pro/Pro Max laptop offerings. Good display, decent CPU, a battery that lasts a day, and Linux support - that’s all that I ask for. Outside of Apple(bar Linux support) are there any manufacturers that offer that?
    - patmorgan23 10mo ago
      That would be an AWESOME market development. Not great for framework but if they end up folding because larger manufacturers adopt most sustainable/interchangeable practices thats a win and I'm happy my framework purchase help prove/promote that market change.
- unethical_ban 10mo ago
  That last sentence is just not true. Have an end user easily order and replace a MacBook Air keyboard, or easily upgrade their MacBook screen direct from the website.
Tade0 10mo ago
I don't know about you, but every laptop I've had suffered some sort of malfunction sooner or later and I never bothered to have them serviced because it was too much of a hassle - especially seeing how a friend of mine outright battled Lenovo support over mundane things like a failing keyboard despite everything being still in warranty. Specific issues by laptop: 1. Pressure marks on screen, failing USB ports, cracked hinge after three years. 2. Pressure marks on screen, failed battery, failing power supply socket after seven years. 3. Warped reflective layer in screen, rattling fans, overheating despite fan replacement (which I did at home and it took three hours) after five years. I also broke the butterfly keyboard on a 2019 MBP I was using at work. With the Framework I can address each and every one of the mentioned problems myself - just need to order parts and spend half an hour or so per item.
- testing22321 10mo ago
  Used mba bought in 2013, taken right around Africa in a 4x4 through 35 countries, sold in 2019. Never an issue. Used mbp bought in 2019, taken through a dozen countries in a 4x4, sold in 2022. Never an issue. Used M1 mba bought in 2022, taken to twenty countries, never an issue. I do heavy photo and 4K video editing, light dev work, writing, web. I restart at most once a year.
  - Tade0 10mo ago
    Guess my normal usage is more destructive than your trips. The main driver of wear in my case was always commuting with the device and thus also plugging/unplugging things several times a day. Also if you hold a 2kg closed laptop with one hand - you're going to have pressure marks and I learned that the hard way. Anyway, all around me people have always had hardware issues - also with Apple products. I recall replacing the battery in a late 2011 MBP because it was swollen as it failed from age alone. Bottom line is that I believe you, I just think you're an outlier.
  - cosmic_cheese 10mo ago
    Similar here. When I trade in my old MacBooks after 4-6 years of use they function like new and look almost new, and I do plenty of moderate-heavy dev work and traveling. I have a nearly 5 year old ThinkPad that's in great condition too. Never needed a repair, though it's had a couple of spells where it acted funky that resolved themselves.
Ritewut 10mo ago
There is no such thing as a vehicle that doesn't need repairs. Just ones you can't repair yourself.
- unethical_ban 10mo ago
  The idea is that repairability and reliability are sometimes at odds. I owned a number of 90s trucks and though it was easier to get into the engine, I had to do it well before 100k miles sometimes. Meanwhile I have a 2010s Japanese vehicle that is at 200k with only an alternator replaced.
  - cosmic_cheese 10mo ago
    Similarly there's now a few models of EV known to make it well past the 100k mark while needing little to no maintenance aside from replacing consumables. Most people aren't knowledgeable or well-equipped enough to work on those, though.
  - Ritewut 10mo ago
    This sounds like correlation not causation.
    - Xss3 10mo ago
      It is and it isnt. The more goals a design has the harder it is to achieve all of them well.

rowanG077 10mo ago

The problem is of course that no vehicles/devices as of now exist that are indestructible

tempsaasexample 10mo ago

True technically, but there's many people that almost enjoy working on their cars IF they are pleasant to work on. And some are. At that point the car is just an avenue for your hobby of working on cars. My parents have a Lexus RX400H (hybrid), that even for me as a car guy is a nightmare to work on. It's technically never had a fault since 2007 with 215k miles. But changing the spark plugs was probably the third hardest thing I've done with cars, only behind dropping a transmission and doing a head gasket job on other cars.

SV_BubbleTime 10mo ago

It would also be apt if the handover cost $10,000 but the engine cost $9000. My framework 13 is OKAY. But the reality of it is the economics just don’t make sense with their pricing. The biggest thing people can comment on the keyboard is easily replaceable. That’s cool and I love the idea, but any vendor could do that part.

Ritewut 10mo ago
I had a Framework mainboard die and I was able to replace it myself with a free replacement they sent me without need to throw away the laptop. The economics make sense when you consider they don't get the priority for chips or the volume discounts that a company like Dell would get from AMD or Intel. They are getting scraps and doing what they can to make it work.
- SV_BubbleTime 10mo ago
  Is that a viable business model though? That they’ll always be a niche supplier with low-vokume issues, seems like a tough market. In fact, I think Dell or HP or Other could demolish Framework in a 1/2 second by offering a line that was even 50% the offering. By focusing on replaceable screens, keyboard, and standing the chassis for multiple boards and selling some parts they dry up FW’s moat with little effort.
  - gessha 10mo ago
    The same companies that can’t make a proper website to sell their products? Please. Framework’s got it in the bag. I don’t remember the number of times I typed dell.com or Lenovo.com, looked for a replacement for my 10-year old XPS, and came out extremely frustrated with the experience. Not to mention the recent copy-paste nonsense from Dell with their Pro/Pro Max laptop offerings. Good display, decent CPU, a battery that lasts a day, and Linux support - that’s all that I ask for. Outside of Apple(bar Linux support) are there any manufacturers that offer that?
  - patmorgan23 10mo ago
    That would be an AWESOME market development. Not great for framework but if they end up folding because larger manufacturers adopt most sustainable/interchangeable practices thats a win and I'm happy my framework purchase help prove/promote that market change.
unethical_ban 10mo ago
That last sentence is just not true. Have an end user easily order and replace a MacBook Air keyboard, or easily upgrade their MacBook screen direct from the website.

Tade0 10mo ago

I don't know about you, but every laptop I've had suffered some sort of malfunction sooner or later and I never bothered to have them serviced because it was too much of a hassle - especially seeing how a friend of mine outright battled Lenovo support over mundane things like a failing keyboard despite everything being still in warranty. Specific issues by laptop: 1. Pressure marks on screen, failing USB ports, cracked hinge after three years. 2. Pressure marks on screen, failed battery, failing power supply socket after seven years. 3. Warped reflective layer in screen, rattling fans, overheating despite fan replacement (which I did at home and it took three hours) after five years. I also broke the butterfly keyboard on a 2019 MBP I was using at work. With the Framework I can address each and every one of the mentioned problems myself - just need to order parts and spend half an hour or so per item.

testing22321 10mo ago
Used mba bought in 2013, taken right around Africa in a 4x4 through 35 countries, sold in 2019. Never an issue. Used mbp bought in 2019, taken through a dozen countries in a 4x4, sold in 2022. Never an issue. Used M1 mba bought in 2022, taken to twenty countries, never an issue. I do heavy photo and 4K video editing, light dev work, writing, web. I restart at most once a year.
- Tade0 10mo ago
  Guess my normal usage is more destructive than your trips. The main driver of wear in my case was always commuting with the device and thus also plugging/unplugging things several times a day. Also if you hold a 2kg closed laptop with one hand - you're going to have pressure marks and I learned that the hard way. Anyway, all around me people have always had hardware issues - also with Apple products. I recall replacing the battery in a late 2011 MBP because it was swollen as it failed from age alone. Bottom line is that I believe you, I just think you're an outlier.
- cosmic_cheese 10mo ago
  Similar here. When I trade in my old MacBooks after 4-6 years of use they function like new and look almost new, and I do plenty of moderate-heavy dev work and traveling. I have a nearly 5 year old ThinkPad that's in great condition too. Never needed a repair, though it's had a couple of spells where it acted funky that resolved themselves.

Ritewut 10mo ago

There is no such thing as a vehicle that doesn't need repairs. Just ones you can't repair yourself.

unethical_ban 10mo ago
The idea is that repairability and reliability are sometimes at odds. I owned a number of 90s trucks and though it was easier to get into the engine, I had to do it well before 100k miles sometimes. Meanwhile I have a 2010s Japanese vehicle that is at 200k with only an alternator replaced.
- cosmic_cheese 10mo ago
  Similarly there's now a few models of EV known to make it well past the 100k mark while needing little to no maintenance aside from replacing consumables. Most people aren't knowledgeable or well-equipped enough to work on those, though.
- Ritewut 10mo ago
  This sounds like correlation not causation.
  - Xss3 10mo ago
    It is and it isnt. The more goals a design has the harder it is to achieve all of them well.