7 ms·

Find me a new MacBook Air that’s $1000 for 2TB of storage + 32GB of RAM, because that’s what I paid for my Framework 13 brand new (before RAM insanity, but this

by dangus 10mo ago

Find me a new MacBook Air that’s $1000 for 2TB of storage + 32GB of RAM, because that’s what I paid for my Framework 13 brand new (before RAM insanity, but this would still only cost about $1200 today). A $50 battery pack solved the battery efficiency problem. So for a little extra weight (external battery + FW13 weighs the same as a MB Pro 14”) I get a lot more actual capability in places that matters than a base MacBook Air. I’ve got two more USB-C/Thunderbolt ports than the Air on both sides of the system with the option to swap them for any I/O I want. And I’m not stuck with macOS arbitrarily dropping support for my non-upgradable all-soldered hardware every 10 years. (I also couldn’t really find a similar Lenovo at anything close to that price/spec with the kind of requirements I have - good keyboard with low flex, nice to haves like the 3:2 aspect ratio, generally a programmer-oriented laptop with good. My second choice might be a Lenovo ThinkPad X9 15 Aura Edition. The T14 series has unacceptable deck flex. Even value systems like the IdeaPad 5i 16 cost more. I could see myself enjoying a Zenbook like the Zenbook Duo but again it costs more).

twobitshifter 10mo ago
That’s all well and good, but you didn’t consider the processor performance, which is where the FW13 falls behind. fw13 - https://browser.geekbench.com/v6/cpu/15773121 https://browser.geekbench.com/v6/cpu/15773121 MacBook Air - https://browser.geekbench.com/macs/macbook-air-15-inch-2025 https://browser.geekbench.com/macs/macbook-air-15-inch-2025 There is a gulf between the two and that’s what is sacrificed on the FW13. I m not saying someone can’t decide to prioritize modularity, storage, and repairability over performance, but there is a ‘price’ to making that choice.
- coldpie 10mo ago
  I don't want to use macOS. (And no, I'm not going to tinker with a brand new Linux port on unsupported hardware.)
- dangus 10mo ago
  A Dodge Neon SRT4 is faster than a lot of BMWs but it doesn’t make it a better car to live with. This is Apple’s price anchor in action. The base price is essentially not the real price. Anyone who can use the capability of their chips to their fullest will need more RAM and storage. Even casual users will find 256GB tight sometimes. Goodbye, “Optimize storage.” In practical use, there really isn’t anything my system can’t do that a MacBook Air can besides battery stamina. Since moving to Linux/x86 gaming has become way easier (goodbye CrossOver). Programming and containerization is way better on Linux, and I finally have the RAM for it. I acknowledge Apple’s lead in their chips but that’s only one component of the experience, and it’s not so far ahead that it’s a major detriment to choose something else.
- makeitdouble 10mo ago
  This is a more comparable benchmark (it's the current FW13): https://browser.geekbench.com/v6/cpu/15769561 https://browser.geekbench.com/v6/cpu/15769561 The MBA has about a 20% better score on the single thread perf benchmark. It's better, but is it that significant ? Especially as it has no active cooling. By the time thermal throttling kicks in the FW13 will keep chugging along. The MBP solves that issue, albeit at significantly higher price range. Then again, the amount of RAM the FW13 can take will also help in many cases.
  - dangus 10mo ago
    Right, I was going to bring up real world over geekbench. For example, in the real world, you’ve gotta run most PC games using CrossOver on Mac with significant performance implications or have them not work at all, where modern Linux/x86 is nearly fully PC game compatible, and the AMD integrated graphics are much more game-optimized than Apple’s. The arbitrary spec limits on Apple systems also get in your way. Want 4TB of storage? Want more than 32GB of RAM? You have to upgrade to a MacBook Pro even if you don’t want all the other features and expense of the Pro model. Is all you want a USB-C port on the right side or an SD card reader? Pony up the extra $600 for the 14” MacBook Pro.
impure-aqua 10mo ago
There are all sorts of other things that don't show up on a spec sheet so easily that Framework isn't competitive on. It has a diving board trackpad, significantly worse speakers, no zonal dimming on the display (comparing to MacBook Pro, which higher end specs of the Framework cost as much as), general poor body rigidity, an aggressive fan curve that ramps up audibly on short loads (the Air doesn't even have a fan and the Pro can handle a couple mins of all-core 100% load without becoming audible), etc etc. As much as I dislike Apple's business practices it's undeniable that other vendors are generally selling significantly cheaper feeling devices at the same price point. These are not niche things, you feel the cheapness on the Framework with every touchpad click, short bursty CPU task, HDR video, audio playback, heck even picking it up off the desk.
- dangus 10mo ago
  Trackpad isn’t as good, true. But it’s not a bad trackpad, either, and I would counter that other operating systems that aren’t macOS support external normal mice a lot better. On macOS I needed to install a separate paid program (Smooze Pro) to make the scroll wheel of an external mouse normal for gaming or other purposes. I would be very interested to try the haptic trackpad on the Lenovo ThinkPad X9 15 Aura Edition. macOS assumes you’re using a trackpad to a fault, to the point where I prefer a trackpad on macOS desktop systems. That’s an operating system choice that a conspiracy theorist might tell you is Apple’s way of artificially differentiating their patent-protected trackpad hardware products. If Apple just used a normal mouse and designed the OS around it like everyone else they couldn’t sell you the advantage of their fancy trackpad, since we all know a dedicated mouse is more precise and quick, so that situation is yet another crazy expensive vendor lock-in accessory along with the Touch ID keyboard. Over $300 if you buy both for your desk setup! Also remember that this is a laptop for programming…how often am I using my mouse? Worse speakers, this is true, though it’s improved by installing Easy Effects and running a Framework profile. I use my AirPods Pro 3 on the Framework and they work great with it. MacBook speakers sound really good but they are still laptop speakers. I don’t agree that the Framework body rigidity is poor. Do you own one or are you just assuming it’s poor? It’s very comparable to a MacBook, the screen has slightly more flex but the keyboard deck and core system is almost identically rigid. Zonal dimming is only available on the MacBook Pro models that cost $600 more than my Framework, which doesn’t include the cost of upgrading them to equivalent 2TB/32GB configuration. So realistically, for my needs I would have had to spend double to get zonal dimming, which doesn’t benefit my programming work at all, though it would presumably benefit gaming. But gaming is my secondary use case. Also, if Framework ever makes a micro-LED screen in the future, I’ll be able to replace it for a very reasonable cost. They have already released a display upgrade and surely will upgrade it again in the future as more panels become available. You can customize the fan curve of a Framework! But the fan noise was never a consideration of mine. I’m not an audio producer. https://github.com/TamtamHero/fw-fanctrl https://github.com/TamtamHero/fw-fanctrl You’re saying I’m constantly burdened by this computer but you’re not really considering how I’m using the laptop. I don’t care much for HDR content and barely watch television, fan noise hasn’t been an issue, this laptop is almost a full pound less heavy than my previous 14” MacBook Pro and almost identical in weight to a MacBook Air, so I don’t understand how picking it up is a worse experience. You didn’t even mention the weak webcam on the Framework! It sucks! But I don’t use it, just like I didn’t use my MacBook webcam. I’m a programmer remember? I don’t go on camera. That’s for sales bros. FaceTime on iPhone is better than the MacBook anyway.

by dangus 10mo ago

twobitshifter 10mo ago

That’s all well and good, but you didn’t consider the processor performance, which is where the FW13 falls behind. fw13 - https://browser.geekbench.com/v6/cpu/15773121 https://browser.geekbench.com/v6/cpu/15773121 MacBook Air - https://browser.geekbench.com/macs/macbook-air-15-inch-2025 https://browser.geekbench.com/macs/macbook-air-15-inch-2025 There is a gulf between the two and that’s what is sacrificed on the FW13. I m not saying someone can’t decide to prioritize modularity, storage, and repairability over performance, but there is a ‘price’ to making that choice.

coldpie 10mo ago
I don't want to use macOS. (And no, I'm not going to tinker with a brand new Linux port on unsupported hardware.)
dangus 10mo ago
A Dodge Neon SRT4 is faster than a lot of BMWs but it doesn’t make it a better car to live with. This is Apple’s price anchor in action. The base price is essentially not the real price. Anyone who can use the capability of their chips to their fullest will need more RAM and storage. Even casual users will find 256GB tight sometimes. Goodbye, “Optimize storage.” In practical use, there really isn’t anything my system can’t do that a MacBook Air can besides battery stamina. Since moving to Linux/x86 gaming has become way easier (goodbye CrossOver). Programming and containerization is way better on Linux, and I finally have the RAM for it. I acknowledge Apple’s lead in their chips but that’s only one component of the experience, and it’s not so far ahead that it’s a major detriment to choose something else.
makeitdouble 10mo ago
This is a more comparable benchmark (it's the current FW13): https://browser.geekbench.com/v6/cpu/15769561 https://browser.geekbench.com/v6/cpu/15769561 The MBA has about a 20% better score on the single thread perf benchmark. It's better, but is it that significant ? Especially as it has no active cooling. By the time thermal throttling kicks in the FW13 will keep chugging along. The MBP solves that issue, albeit at significantly higher price range. Then again, the amount of RAM the FW13 can take will also help in many cases.
- dangus 10mo ago
  Right, I was going to bring up real world over geekbench. For example, in the real world, you’ve gotta run most PC games using CrossOver on Mac with significant performance implications or have them not work at all, where modern Linux/x86 is nearly fully PC game compatible, and the AMD integrated graphics are much more game-optimized than Apple’s. The arbitrary spec limits on Apple systems also get in your way. Want 4TB of storage? Want more than 32GB of RAM? You have to upgrade to a MacBook Pro even if you don’t want all the other features and expense of the Pro model. Is all you want a USB-C port on the right side or an SD card reader? Pony up the extra $600 for the 14” MacBook Pro.

impure-aqua 10mo ago

There are all sorts of other things that don't show up on a spec sheet so easily that Framework isn't competitive on. It has a diving board trackpad, significantly worse speakers, no zonal dimming on the display (comparing to MacBook Pro, which higher end specs of the Framework cost as much as), general poor body rigidity, an aggressive fan curve that ramps up audibly on short loads (the Air doesn't even have a fan and the Pro can handle a couple mins of all-core 100% load without becoming audible), etc etc. As much as I dislike Apple's business practices it's undeniable that other vendors are generally selling significantly cheaper feeling devices at the same price point. These are not niche things, you feel the cheapness on the Framework with every touchpad click, short bursty CPU task, HDR video, audio playback, heck even picking it up off the desk.

dangus 10mo ago
Trackpad isn’t as good, true. But it’s not a bad trackpad, either, and I would counter that other operating systems that aren’t macOS support external normal mice a lot better. On macOS I needed to install a separate paid program (Smooze Pro) to make the scroll wheel of an external mouse normal for gaming or other purposes. I would be very interested to try the haptic trackpad on the Lenovo ThinkPad X9 15 Aura Edition. macOS assumes you’re using a trackpad to a fault, to the point where I prefer a trackpad on macOS desktop systems. That’s an operating system choice that a conspiracy theorist might tell you is Apple’s way of artificially differentiating their patent-protected trackpad hardware products. If Apple just used a normal mouse and designed the OS around it like everyone else they couldn’t sell you the advantage of their fancy trackpad, since we all know a dedicated mouse is more precise and quick, so that situation is yet another crazy expensive vendor lock-in accessory along with the Touch ID keyboard. Over $300 if you buy both for your desk setup! Also remember that this is a laptop for programming…how often am I using my mouse? Worse speakers, this is true, though it’s improved by installing Easy Effects and running a Framework profile. I use my AirPods Pro 3 on the Framework and they work great with it. MacBook speakers sound really good but they are still laptop speakers. I don’t agree that the Framework body rigidity is poor. Do you own one or are you just assuming it’s poor? It’s very comparable to a MacBook, the screen has slightly more flex but the keyboard deck and core system is almost identically rigid. Zonal dimming is only available on the MacBook Pro models that cost $600 more than my Framework, which doesn’t include the cost of upgrading them to equivalent 2TB/32GB configuration. So realistically, for my needs I would have had to spend double to get zonal dimming, which doesn’t benefit my programming work at all, though it would presumably benefit gaming. But gaming is my secondary use case. Also, if Framework ever makes a micro-LED screen in the future, I’ll be able to replace it for a very reasonable cost. They have already released a display upgrade and surely will upgrade it again in the future as more panels become available. You can customize the fan curve of a Framework! But the fan noise was never a consideration of mine. I’m not an audio producer. https://github.com/TamtamHero/fw-fanctrl https://github.com/TamtamHero/fw-fanctrl You’re saying I’m constantly burdened by this computer but you’re not really considering how I’m using the laptop. I don’t care much for HDR content and barely watch television, fan noise hasn’t been an issue, this laptop is almost a full pound less heavy than my previous 14” MacBook Pro and almost identical in weight to a MacBook Air, so I don’t understand how picking it up is a worse experience. You didn’t even mention the weak webcam on the Framework! It sucks! But I don’t use it, just like I didn’t use my MacBook webcam. I’m a programmer remember? I don’t go on camera. That’s for sales bros. FaceTime on iPhone is better than the MacBook anyway.