3 ms·

The problem is that the Framework starts so far behind in performance and battery efficiency of a cheaper Macbook that you aren’t saving money on perf upgrades.

The problem is that the Framework starts so far behind in performance and battery efficiency of a cheaper Macbook that you aren’t saving money on perf upgrades. You really do have to buy it for the idea rather than the reality.

qchris 10mo ago
I don't love this comparison, because I have to use Linux, not Mac. It's not really optional for me, and Asahi simply isn't far enough along to fill the gap. As a result, the question is more Framework vs. Dell or Lenovo, and that creates a much smaller gap in capability in the 13" form factor.
- ashirviskas 10mo ago
  Where is Asahi not far enough if I may ask? I've been daily driving it for 2 years by this point. While it was not really useable for mainstream usecases in the beginning (no speakers, no webcam, other random issues), it did get better month by month and problems got resolved, I find useability equal to my x86 laptops now.
  - p_j_w 10mo ago
    Doesn’t work on anything newer than an M2, for starters.
    - apublicfrog 10mo ago
      We were talking about performance and battery efficiency for cost. I don't know, but I'd reasonably assume an M2 Macbook wins on these ratios.
- hypercube33 10mo ago
  Side complaint: I'm irked that the smaller surface laptop didn't continue with custom AMD chips since they were getting quite powerful in the last one. Other complaint is that because of comments here I went looking at framework but it doesn't show what GPU comes with AMD processors so I'm going to have to not look at this on mobile. I have a Thinkpad, Asus and surface 13" amd and none have fully scratched the itch for my go to machine. Asus is powerful enough but the build quality and durability are pure garbage.
zikduruqe 10mo ago
> Framework starts so far behind in performance ... Honest question and not meant to flame anyone. What benchmark are you referring to regarding performance; spec sheets or your tools are not working correctly or working slowly? Just trying to understand users needs in upgrading. I have some new MacBooks and some old linux laptops. They both equally work just fine for what I need to do, and I am starting to question the need for me to update to a new MacBook M* chipset moving forward.
- simjnd 10mo ago
  It's more a matter of effiency and battery life, and that's mostly due to Linux more than inherent to the Framework or its hardware (try running Asahi Linux on an M MacBook and just notice your battery life be cut in half). I love my M1 Pro MacBook and I wish I could have the same efficiency when running Linux but I can't. My Framework runs faster, but a lot hotter, louder and with a lot less battery life. But I feel like I'm supporting a good company, a good cause, and I love that I can do software updates without fearing that it fucked everything up like every major macOS release does.
  - zikduruqe 10mo ago
    > I love my M1 Pro MacBook and I wish I could have the same efficiency when running Linux but I can't. No doubt. And don't forget Apple nailed the trackpad experience too. But I seldom need to use my laptop for 20 hours away from an A/C outlet. It's nice, but not necessary for me. With that being said, I personally am going to start abandoning the Apple ecosystem with each device that NEEDS to be replaced. I'm tired of features being forced into each software cycle, and I don't want any AI on my devices. I'm going to lean into Framework (or keep my old T480 alive) and GrapheneOS when needed.
    - whompyjaw 10mo ago
      I have been thinking this same thing… Goodluck! I would like my own onprem AI tho. And home assistant devices
dangus 10mo ago
Find me a new MacBook Air that’s $1000 for 2TB of storage + 32GB of RAM, because that’s what I paid for my Framework 13 brand new (before RAM insanity, but this would still only cost about $1200 today). A $50 battery pack solved the battery efficiency problem. So for a little extra weight (external battery + FW13 weighs the same as a MB Pro 14”) I get a lot more actual capability in places that matters than a base MacBook Air. I’ve got two more USB-C/Thunderbolt ports than the Air on both sides of the system with the option to swap them for any I/O I want. And I’m not stuck with macOS arbitrarily dropping support for my non-upgradable all-soldered hardware every 10 years. (I also couldn’t really find a similar Lenovo at anything close to that price/spec with the kind of requirements I have - good keyboard with low flex, nice to haves like the 3:2 aspect ratio, generally a programmer-oriented laptop with good. My second choice might be a Lenovo ThinkPad X9 15 Aura Edition. The T14 series has unacceptable deck flex. Even value systems like the IdeaPad 5i 16 cost more. I could see myself enjoying a Zenbook like the Zenbook Duo but again it costs more).
- twobitshifter 10mo ago
  That’s all well and good, but you didn’t consider the processor performance, which is where the FW13 falls behind. fw13 - https://browser.geekbench.com/v6/cpu/15773121 https://browser.geekbench.com/v6/cpu/15773121 MacBook Air - https://browser.geekbench.com/macs/macbook-air-15-inch-2025 https://browser.geekbench.com/macs/macbook-air-15-inch-2025 There is a gulf between the two and that’s what is sacrificed on the FW13. I m not saying someone can’t decide to prioritize modularity, storage, and repairability over performance, but there is a ‘price’ to making that choice.
  - coldpie 10mo ago
    I don't want to use macOS. (And no, I'm not going to tinker with a brand new Linux port on unsupported hardware.)
  - dangus 10mo ago
    A Dodge Neon SRT4 is faster than a lot of BMWs but it doesn’t make it a better car to live with. This is Apple’s price anchor in action. The base price is essentially not the real price. Anyone who can use the capability of their chips to their fullest will need more RAM and storage. Even casual users will find 256GB tight sometimes. Goodbye, “Optimize storage.” In practical use, there really isn’t anything my system can’t do that a MacBook Air can besides battery stamina. Since moving to Linux/x86 gaming has become way easier (goodbye CrossOver). Programming and containerization is way better on Linux, and I finally have the RAM for it. I acknowledge Apple’s lead in their chips but that’s only one component of the experience, and it’s not so far ahead that it’s a major detriment to choose something else.
deleted 10mo ago
[deleted]
heresie-dabord 10mo ago
> You really do have to buy it for the idea rather than the reality. There is enormous historical irony in this comment. The Apple Distortion Field was an observable delusion for decades before Apple's ARM silicon. That said, CPU performance is just one criterion in choosing a laptop, and Framework's modularity is a greater idea than anything Apple has ever done for re-use.
The_President 10mo ago
We bought all of ours for the idea of not being glued to the Apple ecosystem, and that reality has provided the performance our group requires. Each unit is the top of the line i7 and they last all day - any further requirements for even faster processing is handled by the server farm upstream. Supposedly Apple knows best about performance and longetivity by enforcing clamshell mode for users that want to use only an externally connected display.

qchris 10mo ago

I don't love this comparison, because I have to use Linux, not Mac. It's not really optional for me, and Asahi simply isn't far enough along to fill the gap. As a result, the question is more Framework vs. Dell or Lenovo, and that creates a much smaller gap in capability in the 13" form factor.

ashirviskas 10mo ago
Where is Asahi not far enough if I may ask? I've been daily driving it for 2 years by this point. While it was not really useable for mainstream usecases in the beginning (no speakers, no webcam, other random issues), it did get better month by month and problems got resolved, I find useability equal to my x86 laptops now.
- p_j_w 10mo ago
  Doesn’t work on anything newer than an M2, for starters.
  - apublicfrog 10mo ago
    We were talking about performance and battery efficiency for cost. I don't know, but I'd reasonably assume an M2 Macbook wins on these ratios.
hypercube33 10mo ago
Side complaint: I'm irked that the smaller surface laptop didn't continue with custom AMD chips since they were getting quite powerful in the last one. Other complaint is that because of comments here I went looking at framework but it doesn't show what GPU comes with AMD processors so I'm going to have to not look at this on mobile. I have a Thinkpad, Asus and surface 13" amd and none have fully scratched the itch for my go to machine. Asus is powerful enough but the build quality and durability are pure garbage.

zikduruqe 10mo ago

> Framework starts so far behind in performance ... Honest question and not meant to flame anyone. What benchmark are you referring to regarding performance; spec sheets or your tools are not working correctly or working slowly? Just trying to understand users needs in upgrading. I have some new MacBooks and some old linux laptops. They both equally work just fine for what I need to do, and I am starting to question the need for me to update to a new MacBook M* chipset moving forward.

simjnd 10mo ago
It's more a matter of effiency and battery life, and that's mostly due to Linux more than inherent to the Framework or its hardware (try running Asahi Linux on an M MacBook and just notice your battery life be cut in half). I love my M1 Pro MacBook and I wish I could have the same efficiency when running Linux but I can't. My Framework runs faster, but a lot hotter, louder and with a lot less battery life. But I feel like I'm supporting a good company, a good cause, and I love that I can do software updates without fearing that it fucked everything up like every major macOS release does.
- zikduruqe 10mo ago
  > I love my M1 Pro MacBook and I wish I could have the same efficiency when running Linux but I can't. No doubt. And don't forget Apple nailed the trackpad experience too. But I seldom need to use my laptop for 20 hours away from an A/C outlet. It's nice, but not necessary for me. With that being said, I personally am going to start abandoning the Apple ecosystem with each device that NEEDS to be replaced. I'm tired of features being forced into each software cycle, and I don't want any AI on my devices. I'm going to lean into Framework (or keep my old T480 alive) and GrapheneOS when needed.
  - whompyjaw 10mo ago
    I have been thinking this same thing… Goodluck! I would like my own onprem AI tho. And home assistant devices

dangus 10mo ago

Find me a new MacBook Air that’s $1000 for 2TB of storage + 32GB of RAM, because that’s what I paid for my Framework 13 brand new (before RAM insanity, but this would still only cost about $1200 today). A $50 battery pack solved the battery efficiency problem. So for a little extra weight (external battery + FW13 weighs the same as a MB Pro 14”) I get a lot more actual capability in places that matters than a base MacBook Air. I’ve got two more USB-C/Thunderbolt ports than the Air on both sides of the system with the option to swap them for any I/O I want. And I’m not stuck with macOS arbitrarily dropping support for my non-upgradable all-soldered hardware every 10 years. (I also couldn’t really find a similar Lenovo at anything close to that price/spec with the kind of requirements I have - good keyboard with low flex, nice to haves like the 3:2 aspect ratio, generally a programmer-oriented laptop with good. My second choice might be a Lenovo ThinkPad X9 15 Aura Edition. The T14 series has unacceptable deck flex. Even value systems like the IdeaPad 5i 16 cost more. I could see myself enjoying a Zenbook like the Zenbook Duo but again it costs more).

twobitshifter 10mo ago
That’s all well and good, but you didn’t consider the processor performance, which is where the FW13 falls behind. fw13 - https://browser.geekbench.com/v6/cpu/15773121 https://browser.geekbench.com/v6/cpu/15773121 MacBook Air - https://browser.geekbench.com/macs/macbook-air-15-inch-2025 https://browser.geekbench.com/macs/macbook-air-15-inch-2025 There is a gulf between the two and that’s what is sacrificed on the FW13. I m not saying someone can’t decide to prioritize modularity, storage, and repairability over performance, but there is a ‘price’ to making that choice.
- coldpie 10mo ago
  I don't want to use macOS. (And no, I'm not going to tinker with a brand new Linux port on unsupported hardware.)
- dangus 10mo ago
  A Dodge Neon SRT4 is faster than a lot of BMWs but it doesn’t make it a better car to live with. This is Apple’s price anchor in action. The base price is essentially not the real price. Anyone who can use the capability of their chips to their fullest will need more RAM and storage. Even casual users will find 256GB tight sometimes. Goodbye, “Optimize storage.” In practical use, there really isn’t anything my system can’t do that a MacBook Air can besides battery stamina. Since moving to Linux/x86 gaming has become way easier (goodbye CrossOver). Programming and containerization is way better on Linux, and I finally have the RAM for it. I acknowledge Apple’s lead in their chips but that’s only one component of the experience, and it’s not so far ahead that it’s a major detriment to choose something else.

deleted 10mo ago

[deleted]

heresie-dabord 10mo ago

> You really do have to buy it for the idea rather than the reality. There is enormous historical irony in this comment. The Apple Distortion Field was an observable delusion for decades before Apple's ARM silicon. That said, CPU performance is just one criterion in choosing a laptop, and Framework's modularity is a greater idea than anything Apple has ever done for re-use.

The_President 10mo ago

We bought all of ours for the idea of not being glued to the Apple ecosystem, and that reality has provided the performance our group requires. Each unit is the top of the line i7 and they last all day - any further requirements for even faster processing is handled by the server farm upstream. Supposedly Apple knows best about performance and longetivity by enforcing clamshell mode for users that want to use only an externally connected display.