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> you are rarely exposed to anything that isn’t releasing dopamine all the time and it means you’re rarely challenged This makes me question whether you've tri

> you are rarely exposed to anything that isn’t releasing dopamine all the time and it means you’re rarely challenged This makes me question whether you've tried to use TikTok for an extended period of time - say, 30 minutes a day for a month or so. I liken it more to a skinner box. It will constantly show you low dopamine videos (+ ads) in between "hits" of content that are actually relevant to your interests to keep you hooked. You keep scrolling, scrolling, scrolling past what is basically garbage to find the next "good" video. Sometimes you get many "good" videos in a row! As far as not being challenged, I'm not sure about that. TikTok is always trying to learn more about you and your interests and hobbies and what videos keep you watching for longer. This means that it also frequently shows you videos outside of your "bubble" as a test to see if you're also interested in other topics. Over the past ~3 years, I have had a ton of engaging conversations with others and discovered SO MANY books, games, TV shows, movies, and hobbies because of what is basically an "everything recommendation engine". Most of the books I read this year (well over 100) were recommended by people on TikTok and were novels that I otherwise would have never even given a second glance. I have very mixed feelings about TikTok. On one hand, it has led me to so many things I wouldn't have found otherwise (in a way that Reddit, HN, Bluesky, and other communities have failed). But it is also a depressing time suck that can get you to waste hours of your time on garbage and nonsense. Like most things in life, you get out what you put in.

bryanrasmussen 10mo ago
It makes sense, if I were trying to construct an algorithm to make sure I gave people their hits I would also have to push in things they hadn't shown any interest in or even actively disliked, considering that people get inputs from the reality around them outside my service and as such they may change their behaviors and inclinations, I would need a way to note that is the case and respond.
- thaumasiotes 10mo ago
  You're describing the multi-armed bandit problem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-armed_bandit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-armed_bandit
  - bryanrasmussen 10mo ago
    right, but I was commenting on why the idea that TikTok and other social media platforms will not challenge you is wrong, because even as poor a programmer as myself can see I would need to put some things in that challenge people so as to map and respond to changes in people's preferences over time.
kortilla 10mo ago
It doesn’t sound like you were challenged. The alg probing you with stuff it thinks you might like based on things people with similar interests liked it quite the opposite of challenging. Filter bubbles have become so standardized that people have forgotten what being challenged is like.
furbdiba 10mo ago
“But it is also a depressing time suck that can get you to waste hours of your time on garbage and nonsense. Like most things in life, you get out what you put in.” This is enough of a downside to say all the other positives are irrelevant. You could call this “brain rot” for the masses.
carlosjobim 10mo ago
> Most of the books I read this year (well over 100) That's one book ever third day. Are you really challenging yourself and expanding your mind, or are these just time wasters?
- whattheheckheck 10mo ago
  How far can a mind expand? Like is there really anything new?
- TranquilMarmot 10mo ago
  Does all reading need to be challenging and mind expanding? A lot of the books were "just for fun" sci-fi/fantasy reads. A few of them were "mind-expanding". It's good to have a mix of the two. I listen to audiobooks while I walk the dog, which at 4x 30min walks ends up being 120min/day. At 2x speed that alone is ~4 hours of progress per day. I also listen while cooking and cleaning which adds up to a _lot_ of time.
locknitpicker 10mo ago
> This means that it also frequently shows you videos outside of your "bubble" as a test to see if you're also interested in other topics. Namely far-right, xenophobic content, mixed with subversive propaganda pushed by state actors. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alt-right_pipeline https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alt-right_pipeline
- TranquilMarmot 10mo ago
  I have not seen any of this and I am well aware of it existing, but I imagine that will change once Oracle takes over.
npunt 10mo ago
I don't think the medium of short form video is redeemable. Its occasional positives are the delivery vehicle for the many negatives, the sugar coating around the poison. It's rotten by just about any measure: properties of the medium, what types of business it attracts, messages that thrive, how well it reflects reality, aggregate effects on people across a variety of outcomes, the aftertaste of using it, etc. I think the best question to assess it is does this make us better people or not, and to what degree? From what I have seen, the answer is it seems to be pretty significantly de-skilling us in attention, agency, nuance, psychological wellbeing, etc. It makes us more vulnerable to influence and manipulation. The businesses that benefit the most from deploying it are advertising-based, which naturally leads to surveillance and algorithms and pace of consumption that maximizes addiction. The messages that perform best are emotional and attention seeking. There is no information quality control. The consumption pattern it suggests leaves no room for thinking, processing emotion, or nuance. The personal crusade I'm on is to build a competing product at the quality level of TikTok/Insta that diverts interest & attention toward books, which as a medium is both a lot more of a known quantity and whose consumption naturally results in longer attention spans, greater literacy, and all the nth order consequences of written culture. It's great that things like BookTok exist but ultimately that energy & activity needs to find its way over to a healthier home.
- TranquilMarmot 10mo ago
  I agree that is is irredeemable. I'm excited for Oracle to take over because then TikTok will degrade to a point where I'm not compelled to use it anymore! > build a competing product at the quality level of TikTok/Insta that diverts interest & attention toward books, which as a medium is both a lot more of a known quantity and whose consumption naturally results in longer attention spans, greater literacy, and all the nth order consequences of written culture This sounds great in theory and has been tried a few times (see: Goodreads, Storygraph, Worm.so and a few others) but without the social aspect I think it is difficult to gain traction. A lot of my favorite books I've found by going to local bookstores and looking at the employee recommendations.
  - npunt 9mo ago

bryanrasmussen 10mo ago

It makes sense, if I were trying to construct an algorithm to make sure I gave people their hits I would also have to push in things they hadn't shown any interest in or even actively disliked, considering that people get inputs from the reality around them outside my service and as such they may change their behaviors and inclinations, I would need a way to note that is the case and respond.

thaumasiotes 10mo ago
You're describing the multi-armed bandit problem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-armed_bandit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-armed_bandit
- bryanrasmussen 10mo ago
  right, but I was commenting on why the idea that TikTok and other social media platforms will not challenge you is wrong, because even as poor a programmer as myself can see I would need to put some things in that challenge people so as to map and respond to changes in people's preferences over time.

kortilla 10mo ago

It doesn’t sound like you were challenged. The alg probing you with stuff it thinks you might like based on things people with similar interests liked it quite the opposite of challenging. Filter bubbles have become so standardized that people have forgotten what being challenged is like.

furbdiba 10mo ago

“But it is also a depressing time suck that can get you to waste hours of your time on garbage and nonsense. Like most things in life, you get out what you put in.” This is enough of a downside to say all the other positives are irrelevant. You could call this “brain rot” for the masses.

carlosjobim 10mo ago

> Most of the books I read this year (well over 100) That's one book ever third day. Are you really challenging yourself and expanding your mind, or are these just time wasters?

whattheheckheck 10mo ago
How far can a mind expand? Like is there really anything new?
TranquilMarmot 10mo ago
Does all reading need to be challenging and mind expanding? A lot of the books were "just for fun" sci-fi/fantasy reads. A few of them were "mind-expanding". It's good to have a mix of the two. I listen to audiobooks while I walk the dog, which at 4x 30min walks ends up being 120min/day. At 2x speed that alone is ~4 hours of progress per day. I also listen while cooking and cleaning which adds up to a _lot_ of time.

locknitpicker 10mo ago

> This means that it also frequently shows you videos outside of your "bubble" as a test to see if you're also interested in other topics. Namely far-right, xenophobic content, mixed with subversive propaganda pushed by state actors. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alt-right_pipeline https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alt-right_pipeline

TranquilMarmot 10mo ago
I have not seen any of this and I am well aware of it existing, but I imagine that will change once Oracle takes over.

npunt 10mo ago

I don't think the medium of short form video is redeemable. Its occasional positives are the delivery vehicle for the many negatives, the sugar coating around the poison. It's rotten by just about any measure: properties of the medium, what types of business it attracts, messages that thrive, how well it reflects reality, aggregate effects on people across a variety of outcomes, the aftertaste of using it, etc. I think the best question to assess it is does this make us better people or not, and to what degree? From what I have seen, the answer is it seems to be pretty significantly de-skilling us in attention, agency, nuance, psychological wellbeing, etc. It makes us more vulnerable to influence and manipulation. The businesses that benefit the most from deploying it are advertising-based, which naturally leads to surveillance and algorithms and pace of consumption that maximizes addiction. The messages that perform best are emotional and attention seeking. There is no information quality control. The consumption pattern it suggests leaves no room for thinking, processing emotion, or nuance. The personal crusade I'm on is to build a competing product at the quality level of TikTok/Insta that diverts interest & attention toward books, which as a medium is both a lot more of a known quantity and whose consumption naturally results in longer attention spans, greater literacy, and all the nth order consequences of written culture. It's great that things like BookTok exist but ultimately that energy & activity needs to find its way over to a healthier home.

TranquilMarmot 10mo ago
I agree that is is irredeemable. I'm excited for Oracle to take over because then TikTok will degrade to a point where I'm not compelled to use it anymore! > build a competing product at the quality level of TikTok/Insta that diverts interest & attention toward books, which as a medium is both a lot more of a known quantity and whose consumption naturally results in longer attention spans, greater literacy, and all the nth order consequences of written culture This sounds great in theory and has been tried a few times (see: Goodreads, Storygraph, Worm.so and a few others) but without the social aspect I think it is difficult to gain traction. A lot of my favorite books I've found by going to local bookstores and looking at the employee recommendations.
- npunt 9mo ago