6 ms·

so not only did they enforce a ridiculously small message limit, they also did it for the self-hosted version, and they did it without announcing it AND without

so not only did they enforce a ridiculously small message limit, they also did it for the self-hosted version, and they did it without announcing it AND without a suitable migration path and still no one from that company has admitted to it being a mistake? very nice

protimewaster 9mo ago
In defense of them not admitting any kind of mistake, maybe it's not actually a mistake but instead a really well thought out, yet incredibly stupid, plan.
- creshal 9mo ago
  That'd be even more reason for them to have a solid PR plan prepared, to grind down opposition and gaslight everyone into giving up. Leaving all messaging about the issue to upset users is the worst way to handle it. Even just closing the issue would've been less damaging at this point.
- cwmoore 9mo ago
  The distinction isn’t non-discriminating, but if it is then, what it is, I believe.
- g947o 9mo ago
  aka "it's a good idea to turn our productivity software into ransomware" plan
  - pixl97 9mo ago
    Isn't that just the Oracle method?
    - BuildTheRobots 9mo ago
      It works exceptionally well for Slack as we've seen over the years. Someone in your $group uses signs up for the free tier, gets people using it and then you've got to pay through the nose to access any history.
      - happyopossum 9mo ago
        At least slack is clear upfront that this is going to happen, mattermost just did a rug pull and removed history from users who previously had access to it.
- TheNewsIsHere 9mo ago
  I have administered a number of Mattermost environments going back to 2019. It absolutely is not a mistake. They’ve been slowly introducing limits to the Team Edition and screwing with the licensing in obtuse ways to drive revenue. It is something that has executive force behind it. I have migrated everyone/everything to Zulip, which it turns out has a far better user experience and a much cleaner model. The admin tools are much more mature (and actually function reliably). I have not gotten any complaints. And I also don’t have to deal with things like on-premise to managed cloud back to on-prem migrations due to ridiculous licensing and pricing instability.
arlcode 9mo ago
Yeah I'm mostly confused about their lack of communication. If they want to do that then, as every corporate "open source", they are free to do so but why not communicate that at least in the release post? Any potential free user who would consider going paid will now be starting off their relationship negatively. Really weird strategy.
ekianjo 9mo ago
what license do they use? If a true FOSS license it's time to fork...
- RobotToaster 9mo ago
  Appears to be "open core" agpl https://github.com/mattermost/mattermost?tab=readme-ov-file https://github.com/mattermost/mattermost?tab=readme-ov-file Not sure what isn't included in the core though.
- 47282847 9mo ago
  Framasoft did: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46393817 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46393817
this_user 9mo ago
Because it is almost certainly not a mistake. They also removed support for SSO via GitLab in the Community Edition in v11, which was the only SSO option still supported by the OSS version. They are pretty obviously trying to push users towards the paid plans.
- antifarben 9mo ago
  Huh? I just saw it as supported in their docs a week ago I thought?
AmazingTurtle 9mo ago
Well they announced it in their v11 release. They stated that you may stay on v10 for 12 months (EOL) and otherwise proceed with non-profit etc. Classic rug pull though
brandensilva 9mo ago
If this was intentional I'm going to uninstall it and encourage people never to use it. This is ridiculous.
PunchyHamster 9mo ago
We migrated off them when they removed the license tier (there was cheaper self hosted tier that had LDAP feature we needed, and we really only got the enterprise version for) and essentially forced everyone to tier above.
- SubiculumCode 9mo ago
  Where did you migrate to, if I may ask? And has it worked out?
  - nixgeek 9mo ago
    Discord. It’s not self-hosted but it currently works fine for my needs. I guess if they start charging $15/mo per user we’ll all migrate again.
Zacharias030 9mo ago
I recently switched a bunch of friends from a project-oriented whatsapp chat to self-hosted mattermost, because I wanted permanent storage for messages and attachments, and threads, and did not want to pay slack in perpetuity. I feel that this idea is now in jeopardy, if I understand the 10k message history is the limit correctly. And there I thought I had a solution to slowly bring over project channels, family related things etc. that was as reliable as "my linux box will be reachable on the public internet" and I am willing to manage that it does. Seems I was wrong, but I don't know which other software has better future proofing.
- xethos 9mo ago
  So I guess it's my turn today to start the holy war. If Whatsapp was enough, but you want it to live on your Linux box, Matrix will do just fine. self-hosting has been fast, responsive, low-maintenance, and easy for me over the past several years. They're trusted by multiple government agencies to stick around and treat their users reasonably, and there are a plethora of clients to choose from. Now I'll step to the side for the next person to tear me down and sell you on XMPP.
  - SubiculumCode 9mo ago
    Given that I've been using a self hosted Mattermost for 6+ years, I haven't heard of either Matrix.or XMPP...so will now need to look these up.
    - xethos 9mo ago
      The next guy's job is to tell you XMPP is lighter, gen-er-ally viewed as simpler, with a wide array of clients and servers, optional encryption, and with a longer history (with that being viewed as rhyming with reliable). My "job" in this holy-war thread is to tell you Matrix has become lighter over time, the "default" server Synapse has less, but IMO more up-to-date documentation with a real corporation behind keeping it up-to-date and useful, has a blossoming ecosystem of clients, servers, and bridges (allowing you to use it for other chat systems like Whatsapp and Telegram), has encryption being an enforced default for one-to-one mesasges (instead of XMPP's bolted-on after-the-fact extension), and a paid team to make Synapse more robust, reliable, lighter, faster, and more secure. Take both arguments with a grain of salt, as I am biased as hell (to the point of donating a small amount monthly to Matrix, and starting flame wars like this one).
dlkckvll 9mo ago
The 10000 crippling messages limit is probably not chosen randomly, it’s the same as Slack’s. Not by accident.
- it33 9mo ago
  @dlkckvll "Mattermost Entry" is the commercial version of Mattermost intended for evaluation. It's not the open source version, which is Mattermost Team Edition. Here's the full announcement: https://forum.mattermost.com/t/mattermost-v11-changes-in-free-offerings/25126 https://forum.mattermost.com/t/mattermost-v11-changes-in-fre...
it33 9mo ago
@Zephilinox I think the announcement was last August: https://forum.mattermost.com/t/mattermost-v11-changes-in-free-offerings/25126 https://forum.mattermost.com/t/mattermost-v11-changes-in-fre... It's referenced in the discussion: https://github.com/mattermost/mattermost/issues/34271#issuecomment-3446994521 https://github.com/mattermost/mattermost/issues/34271#issuec...

protimewaster 9mo ago

In defense of them not admitting any kind of mistake, maybe it's not actually a mistake but instead a really well thought out, yet incredibly stupid, plan.

creshal 9mo ago
That'd be even more reason for them to have a solid PR plan prepared, to grind down opposition and gaslight everyone into giving up. Leaving all messaging about the issue to upset users is the worst way to handle it. Even just closing the issue would've been less damaging at this point.
cwmoore 9mo ago
The distinction isn’t non-discriminating, but if it is then, what it is, I believe.
g947o 9mo ago
aka "it's a good idea to turn our productivity software into ransomware" plan
- pixl97 9mo ago
  Isn't that just the Oracle method?
  - BuildTheRobots 9mo ago
    It works exceptionally well for Slack as we've seen over the years. Someone in your $group uses signs up for the free tier, gets people using it and then you've got to pay through the nose to access any history.
    - happyopossum 9mo ago
      At least slack is clear upfront that this is going to happen, mattermost just did a rug pull and removed history from users who previously had access to it.
TheNewsIsHere 9mo ago
I have administered a number of Mattermost environments going back to 2019. It absolutely is not a mistake. They’ve been slowly introducing limits to the Team Edition and screwing with the licensing in obtuse ways to drive revenue. It is something that has executive force behind it. I have migrated everyone/everything to Zulip, which it turns out has a far better user experience and a much cleaner model. The admin tools are much more mature (and actually function reliably). I have not gotten any complaints. And I also don’t have to deal with things like on-premise to managed cloud back to on-prem migrations due to ridiculous licensing and pricing instability.

arlcode 9mo ago

Yeah I'm mostly confused about their lack of communication. If they want to do that then, as every corporate "open source", they are free to do so but why not communicate that at least in the release post? Any potential free user who would consider going paid will now be starting off their relationship negatively. Really weird strategy.

ekianjo 9mo ago

what license do they use? If a true FOSS license it's time to fork...

RobotToaster 9mo ago
Appears to be "open core" agpl https://github.com/mattermost/mattermost?tab=readme-ov-file https://github.com/mattermost/mattermost?tab=readme-ov-file Not sure what isn't included in the core though.
47282847 9mo ago
Framasoft did: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46393817 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46393817

this_user 9mo ago

Because it is almost certainly not a mistake. They also removed support for SSO via GitLab in the Community Edition in v11, which was the only SSO option still supported by the OSS version. They are pretty obviously trying to push users towards the paid plans.

antifarben 9mo ago
Huh? I just saw it as supported in their docs a week ago I thought?

AmazingTurtle 9mo ago

Well they announced it in their v11 release. They stated that you may stay on v10 for 12 months (EOL) and otherwise proceed with non-profit etc. Classic rug pull though

brandensilva 9mo ago

If this was intentional I'm going to uninstall it and encourage people never to use it. This is ridiculous.

PunchyHamster 9mo ago

We migrated off them when they removed the license tier (there was cheaper self hosted tier that had LDAP feature we needed, and we really only got the enterprise version for) and essentially forced everyone to tier above.

SubiculumCode 9mo ago
Where did you migrate to, if I may ask? And has it worked out?
- nixgeek 9mo ago
  Discord. It’s not self-hosted but it currently works fine for my needs. I guess if they start charging $15/mo per user we’ll all migrate again.

Zacharias030 9mo ago

I recently switched a bunch of friends from a project-oriented whatsapp chat to self-hosted mattermost, because I wanted permanent storage for messages and attachments, and threads, and did not want to pay slack in perpetuity. I feel that this idea is now in jeopardy, if I understand the 10k message history is the limit correctly. And there I thought I had a solution to slowly bring over project channels, family related things etc. that was as reliable as "my linux box will be reachable on the public internet" and I am willing to manage that it does. Seems I was wrong, but I don't know which other software has better future proofing.

xethos 9mo ago
So I guess it's my turn today to start the holy war. If Whatsapp was enough, but you want it to live on your Linux box, Matrix will do just fine. self-hosting has been fast, responsive, low-maintenance, and easy for me over the past several years. They're trusted by multiple government agencies to stick around and treat their users reasonably, and there are a plethora of clients to choose from. Now I'll step to the side for the next person to tear me down and sell you on XMPP.
- SubiculumCode 9mo ago
  Given that I've been using a self hosted Mattermost for 6+ years, I haven't heard of either Matrix.or XMPP...so will now need to look these up.
  - xethos 9mo ago
    The next guy's job is to tell you XMPP is lighter, gen-er-ally viewed as simpler, with a wide array of clients and servers, optional encryption, and with a longer history (with that being viewed as rhyming with reliable). My "job" in this holy-war thread is to tell you Matrix has become lighter over time, the "default" server Synapse has less, but IMO more up-to-date documentation with a real corporation behind keeping it up-to-date and useful, has a blossoming ecosystem of clients, servers, and bridges (allowing you to use it for other chat systems like Whatsapp and Telegram), has encryption being an enforced default for one-to-one mesasges (instead of XMPP's bolted-on after-the-fact extension), and a paid team to make Synapse more robust, reliable, lighter, faster, and more secure. Take both arguments with a grain of salt, as I am biased as hell (to the point of donating a small amount monthly to Matrix, and starting flame wars like this one).

dlkckvll 9mo ago

The 10000 crippling messages limit is probably not chosen randomly, it’s the same as Slack’s. Not by accident.

it33 9mo ago
@dlkckvll "Mattermost Entry" is the commercial version of Mattermost intended for evaluation. It's not the open source version, which is Mattermost Team Edition. Here's the full announcement: https://forum.mattermost.com/t/mattermost-v11-changes-in-free-offerings/25126 https://forum.mattermost.com/t/mattermost-v11-changes-in-fre...

it33 9mo ago

@Zephilinox I think the announcement was last August: https://forum.mattermost.com/t/mattermost-v11-changes-in-free-offerings/25126 https://forum.mattermost.com/t/mattermost-v11-changes-in-fre... It's referenced in the discussion: https://github.com/mattermost/mattermost/issues/34271#issuecomment-3446994521 https://github.com/mattermost/mattermost/issues/34271#issuec...