4 ms·

Mobile version of IE10 won’t run Flash by default

45 points by Rabidgremlin 14y ago

Cached link since my poor server is dead: http://blog.rabidgremlin.com.nyud.net/2012/10/11/did-microsoft-just-kill-flash-ie10-wont-run-flash-unless-your-site-is-on-a-microsoft-whitelist/

cryptoz 14y ago
Apple and Adobe killed Flash. MS is merely a "me too" Flash-killer here.
- stephengillie 14y ago
  Videos chugging along at -1fps to 10fps on phones is what killed flash. Edited...
  - lysol 14y ago
    Flash killed flash. Video runs just fine on phone hardware.
    - irunbackwards 14y ago
      Macromedia killed Flash, Adobe has been using the defibrillator for quite some time now.
  - fruchtose 14y ago
    What's killing Flash is 10 years of buggy, awful software. No other multi-platform VM has had so many performance issues, so many security holes, and so many bugs that significantly degraded the user experience. JavaScript interpreters have never been as terrible as Flash. Java has never been as terrible as Flash. Flash's only claim to fame is its ubiquity. It will not be missed.
- JimmaDaRustla 14y ago
  I made another reply here - MS will be packaging Flash automatically with IE...so it may be a little bit of a helping hand for Flash, while trying to keep it secure.
Metrop0218 14y ago
Wouldn't surprise me. Everyone is trying to kill flash; HTML5 has filled in the gaps.
Turing_Machine 14y ago
If your video delivery company isn't already supporting user-transparent alternatives to Flash at this late date, you should probably be looking for a different video delivery company. It looks like Brightcove does support mobile (at least they claim to) so what's the big deal? Can't they just deliver different content for the new IE, the same way they are presumably already doing for the other non-Flash platforms? I'd be royally pissed if they told me it was my responsibility to get my site whitelisted with Microsoft.
- Rabidgremlin 14y ago
  Its all about the DRM. Flash is the only viable way of streaming with enough protection that keeps rights-holders happy :( Video on the web would be a lot simpler if DRM/content protection would die die die...
  - threedaymonk 14y ago
    I'm not even convinced that these supremely ignorant "rights holders" really exist, except in scary tales handed down from one generation to the next. I mean, surely they don't think their "protection" is actually working, do they? Have they never been on the internet? RTMPE was cracked years ago (the handshaking consists of little more than sending an HMAC of a magic string and the player file)[1]. It's all just obfuscation. Putting a transparent layer over the video and obfuscating the file name will achieve the same effect, that is, preventing casual downloads. That's all they've got at the moment, even with Flash "DRM". 1. http://lkcl.net/rtmp/RTMPE.txt http://lkcl.net/rtmp/RTMPE.txt
    - objclxt 14y ago
      "I'm not even convinced that these supremely ignorant "rights holders" really exist, except in scary tales handed down from one generation to the next" I do some work in the mobile space around rights protected video. Trust me, they exist. Particularly if the content you're handling isn't on public release yet.
    - Rabidgremlin 14y ago
JimmaDaRustla 14y ago
Probably mostly a security strategy, with a side of merciless.
efsavage 14y ago
That's funny, because I won't use IE10 unless your site is on a whitelist.
azakai 14y ago
Can't tell because the page won't load, perhaps MS indirectly killed the webserver of the blog ;)
bunderbunder 14y ago
Cue stanard Betteridge's Law remark. The whitelisting only applies to the "mobile" version of their browser. To that end, Microsoft's policy is markedly more Flash-friendly than what's happening on other Mobile platforms. After all, at least some Flash content will be permitted. By contrast, iOS and (as of recently) Android are effectively Flash-free platforms. I think the fact that there's no restriction on desktop, combined with their published requirements for how to get whitelisted for mobile, make it pretty clear that this isn't really meant to be an attack on Flash. It's more an attempt to deal with the large number of websites whose Flash content is fundamentally incompatible with touchscreens because it assumes the presence of a mouse. Blocking Flash on those sites hopefully results in a better user experience because the site is theoretically degrading to a Flash-free version instead. Far from being a Flash-killing move, in hindsight the other mobile platforms adopting a similar policy might have been the one thing that could have saved Flash for them.
- Leon 14y ago
  The headline did not end in a question mark.
  - bunderbunder 14y ago
    "Did MS just kill Flash?"
- alexanderh 14y ago
  Flash can be downloaded and installed on Jellybean. Sure it doesn't come standard anymore, but it works just fine. Android is far from a flash free platform. In fact I'd say its still the superior mobile flash platform. Its kind of crazy to me Google doesnt include Flash with jellybean when it works just fine. I'm all for killing flash asap, I hate it... but when it works... why deprive people of that bullet point feature? Either way, its beyond false to call Android (even jellybean) a "flash free platform". You have to download and install flash on a desktop computer, just like you have to download and install Flash on Jellybean. Still works like a dream though.
  - 14y ago
drivebyacct2 14y ago
IE10 in RT mode. Title is a bit misleading.
- rlu 14y ago
  Exactly. If anything this is more lenient than most other mobile browsers
- ashmud 14y ago
  Beat me to it. Hasn't this change been known since early Win8 information was available publicly? Here's the MS page linked from the article, since the site is currently unresponsive: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ie/jj193557(v=vs.85).aspx http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ie/jj193557(v=vs.85)...
  - drivebyacct2 14y ago
    >Hasn't this change been known since early Win8 information was available publicly? Yes.
ryanisinallofus 14y ago
This article should be edited-away by the moderators. Not just link-bait garbage but the title is an actual lie.
cyber 14y ago
NoScript under Firefox, and ClickToFlash* under Safari can help the transition to a Flash-free environment. * hoyois.github.com/safariextensions/clicktoplugin/
- riffraff 14y ago
  disabling plugins in chrome works fine too (which ends up being clicktoflash). But it also makes it needlessly difficult to whitelist sites.
cmccabe 14y ago
I hope Ballmer issued a memo about "cutting off their air supply," for old time's sake.
mtgx 14y ago
Isn't this old news?
Rabidgremlin 14y ago
Oops my server went boom (I really need to toughen it up)... Here is the link to the Developer guidance for websites with content for Adobe Flash Player in Windows 8: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ie/jj193557(v=vs.85).aspx http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ie/jj193557(v=vs.85)...
- filipncs 14y ago
  That document clearly states that the desktop version of IE isn't affected.
  - Rabidgremlin 14y ago
    But the Windows UI version is and that is the default for Windows 8...
    - bradleyland 14y ago
      Unfortunately, I think you're being judged based on your headline because the site is down. Cached versions are coming up slowly as well. Are you running on WP? Got a cache plugin installed?
      - Rabidgremlin 14y ago
        I do but my Apache config sux so ran out of RAM (its a low traffic server). I was gonna put Varnish in front but have just never got around to it. Server resize in progress :)
  - bradleyland 14y ago
    I'm afraid the issue isn't all that clear. There's some confusion of terms going on in this whole discussion. Traditionally, when people hear "desktop version", they think: "the version that runs on desktop and laptop PC, as opposed to mobile devices like tablets and phones." This distinction doesn't hold for Windows 8, because the "desktop" version of IE10 isn't alone on Windows 8. Windows 8 UI will run the "mobile" version (loosely speaking) of IE10. Based on this, we have the following: Windows UI | Desktop ================================+================ Tablet or phone : Affected | N/A Desktop or laptop: Affected | NOT affected
Rabidgremlin 14y ago
Cached link since my poor server is dead: http://blog.rabidgremlin.com.nyud.net/2012/10/11/did-microsoft-just-kill-flash-ie10-wont-run-flash-unless-your-site-is-on-a-microsoft-whitelist/ http://blog.rabidgremlin.com.nyud.net/2012/10/11/did-microso...
27182818284 14y ago
http://blog.rabidgremlin.com.nyud.net/2012/10/11/did-microsoft-just-kill-flash-ie10-wont-run-flash-unless-your-site-is-on-a-microsoft-whitelist/ http://blog.rabidgremlin.com.nyud.net/2012/10/11/did-microso... Instead of a mortal wound from Apple or death by a thousand cuts, it seems like Flash is dying from a series of maiming injuries. Although DRM is often cited for the main reason Flash still exists, from my experience it exists because it is still being taught at community colleges and universities to graphic design students. They enter the workforce, do something at their new job in Flash like a restaurant menu or whatever, it looks good on a desktop and so Flash persists.
franklaemmer 14y ago
Windows is getting better and better. I recently committed a website to a design review site. FLASH pages are not allowed any more. These pages used to be called FLASH–award, now they are called CSS-awards, what comes next?
jiggy2011 14y ago
Somewhat OT and tin foil hat: I was talking to a friend the other day about whether it was best investing time into getting really good at developing for the web vs native mobile/desktop. My argument was that the big advantage of web dev was that you not only had more choice of backend tools but it was also the best way to get your apps to run on any platform including locked down ones without having to worry about app store policies etc. His counter argument was that the browser is becoming the new target for malware etc especially as the new HTML5 APIs become more sophisticated. He thought that it might be likely that some browser APIs would become locked down by platform vendors. In other words if you want your web app to do stuff like WebGL/Local Storage etc you would need to be explicitly whitelisted by the OS or browser vendor. In which case there could be rules like "your web app cannot do xyz, your website must not have content related to abc". Outright website blocking would seem out of the question, but perhaps things like this are the first sign of a move in that kind of direction?
alrs 14y ago
Wishful thinking says that they're taking a kick at Adobe because they're aware of an effort to port Creative Suite to Linux.
Rabidgremlin 14y ago
Sigh... title got edited... somebody didn't read the article. This effects desktop windows 8 too not just mobile
JimmaDaRustla 14y ago
I think this is occurring because of some news released by Microsoft on Monday - Flash will now be packaged with IE by default. This provides a better user experience - never need to download and install/update Flash, but they provide a way to keep it secure. Heard it on today's Security Now. http://twit.tv/show/security-now/373 http://twit.tv/show/security-now/373

45 points by Rabidgremlin 14y ago

Cached link since my poor server is dead: http://blog.rabidgremlin.com.nyud.net/2012/10/11/did-microsoft-just-kill-flash-ie10-wont-run-flash-unless-your-site-is-on-a-microsoft-whitelist/

cryptoz 14y ago

Apple and Adobe killed Flash. MS is merely a "me too" Flash-killer here.

stephengillie 14y ago
Videos chugging along at -1fps to 10fps on phones is what killed flash. Edited...
- lysol 14y ago
  Flash killed flash. Video runs just fine on phone hardware.
  - irunbackwards 14y ago
    Macromedia killed Flash, Adobe has been using the defibrillator for quite some time now.
- fruchtose 14y ago
  What's killing Flash is 10 years of buggy, awful software. No other multi-platform VM has had so many performance issues, so many security holes, and so many bugs that significantly degraded the user experience. JavaScript interpreters have never been as terrible as Flash. Java has never been as terrible as Flash. Flash's only claim to fame is its ubiquity. It will not be missed.
JimmaDaRustla 14y ago
I made another reply here - MS will be packaging Flash automatically with IE...so it may be a little bit of a helping hand for Flash, while trying to keep it secure.

Metrop0218 14y ago

Wouldn't surprise me. Everyone is trying to kill flash; HTML5 has filled in the gaps.

Turing_Machine 14y ago

If your video delivery company isn't already supporting user-transparent alternatives to Flash at this late date, you should probably be looking for a different video delivery company. It looks like Brightcove does support mobile (at least they claim to) so what's the big deal? Can't they just deliver different content for the new IE, the same way they are presumably already doing for the other non-Flash platforms? I'd be royally pissed if they told me it was my responsibility to get my site whitelisted with Microsoft.

Rabidgremlin 14y ago
Its all about the DRM. Flash is the only viable way of streaming with enough protection that keeps rights-holders happy :( Video on the web would be a lot simpler if DRM/content protection would die die die...
- threedaymonk 14y ago
  I'm not even convinced that these supremely ignorant "rights holders" really exist, except in scary tales handed down from one generation to the next. I mean, surely they don't think their "protection" is actually working, do they? Have they never been on the internet? RTMPE was cracked years ago (the handshaking consists of little more than sending an HMAC of a magic string and the player file)[1]. It's all just obfuscation. Putting a transparent layer over the video and obfuscating the file name will achieve the same effect, that is, preventing casual downloads. That's all they've got at the moment, even with Flash "DRM". 1. http://lkcl.net/rtmp/RTMPE.txt http://lkcl.net/rtmp/RTMPE.txt
  - objclxt 14y ago
    "I'm not even convinced that these supremely ignorant "rights holders" really exist, except in scary tales handed down from one generation to the next" I do some work in the mobile space around rights protected video. Trust me, they exist. Particularly if the content you're handling isn't on public release yet.
  - Rabidgremlin 14y ago

JimmaDaRustla 14y ago

Probably mostly a security strategy, with a side of merciless.

efsavage 14y ago

That's funny, because I won't use IE10 unless your site is on a whitelist.

azakai 14y ago

Can't tell because the page won't load, perhaps MS indirectly killed the webserver of the blog ;)

bunderbunder 14y ago

Cue stanard Betteridge's Law remark. The whitelisting only applies to the "mobile" version of their browser. To that end, Microsoft's policy is markedly more Flash-friendly than what's happening on other Mobile platforms. After all, at least some Flash content will be permitted. By contrast, iOS and (as of recently) Android are effectively Flash-free platforms. I think the fact that there's no restriction on desktop, combined with their published requirements for how to get whitelisted for mobile, make it pretty clear that this isn't really meant to be an attack on Flash. It's more an attempt to deal with the large number of websites whose Flash content is fundamentally incompatible with touchscreens because it assumes the presence of a mouse. Blocking Flash on those sites hopefully results in a better user experience because the site is theoretically degrading to a Flash-free version instead. Far from being a Flash-killing move, in hindsight the other mobile platforms adopting a similar policy might have been the one thing that could have saved Flash for them.

Leon 14y ago
The headline did not end in a question mark.
- bunderbunder 14y ago
  "Did MS just kill Flash?"
alexanderh 14y ago
Flash can be downloaded and installed on Jellybean. Sure it doesn't come standard anymore, but it works just fine. Android is far from a flash free platform. In fact I'd say its still the superior mobile flash platform. Its kind of crazy to me Google doesnt include Flash with jellybean when it works just fine. I'm all for killing flash asap, I hate it... but when it works... why deprive people of that bullet point feature? Either way, its beyond false to call Android (even jellybean) a "flash free platform". You have to download and install flash on a desktop computer, just like you have to download and install Flash on Jellybean. Still works like a dream though.
- 14y ago

drivebyacct2 14y ago

IE10 in RT mode. Title is a bit misleading.

rlu 14y ago
Exactly. If anything this is more lenient than most other mobile browsers
ashmud 14y ago
Beat me to it. Hasn't this change been known since early Win8 information was available publicly? Here's the MS page linked from the article, since the site is currently unresponsive: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ie/jj193557(v=vs.85).aspx http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ie/jj193557(v=vs.85)...
- drivebyacct2 14y ago
  >Hasn't this change been known since early Win8 information was available publicly? Yes.

ryanisinallofus 14y ago

This article should be edited-away by the moderators. Not just link-bait garbage but the title is an actual lie.

cyber 14y ago

NoScript under Firefox, and ClickToFlash* under Safari can help the transition to a Flash-free environment. * hoyois.github.com/safariextensions/clicktoplugin/

riffraff 14y ago
disabling plugins in chrome works fine too (which ends up being clicktoflash). But it also makes it needlessly difficult to whitelist sites.

cmccabe 14y ago

I hope Ballmer issued a memo about "cutting off their air supply," for old time's sake.

mtgx 14y ago

Isn't this old news?

Rabidgremlin 14y ago

Oops my server went boom (I really need to toughen it up)... Here is the link to the Developer guidance for websites with content for Adobe Flash Player in Windows 8: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ie/jj193557(v=vs.85).aspx http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ie/jj193557(v=vs.85)...

filipncs 14y ago
That document clearly states that the desktop version of IE isn't affected.
- Rabidgremlin 14y ago
  But the Windows UI version is and that is the default for Windows 8...
  - bradleyland 14y ago
    Unfortunately, I think you're being judged based on your headline because the site is down. Cached versions are coming up slowly as well. Are you running on WP? Got a cache plugin installed?
    - Rabidgremlin 14y ago
      I do but my Apache config sux so ran out of RAM (its a low traffic server). I was gonna put Varnish in front but have just never got around to it. Server resize in progress :)
- bradleyland 14y ago
  I'm afraid the issue isn't all that clear. There's some confusion of terms going on in this whole discussion. Traditionally, when people hear "desktop version", they think: "the version that runs on desktop and laptop PC, as opposed to mobile devices like tablets and phones." This distinction doesn't hold for Windows 8, because the "desktop" version of IE10 isn't alone on Windows 8. Windows 8 UI will run the "mobile" version (loosely speaking) of IE10. Based on this, we have the following: Windows UI | Desktop ================================+================ Tablet or phone : Affected | N/A Desktop or laptop: Affected | NOT affected

Rabidgremlin 14y ago

Cached link since my poor server is dead: http://blog.rabidgremlin.com.nyud.net/2012/10/11/did-microsoft-just-kill-flash-ie10-wont-run-flash-unless-your-site-is-on-a-microsoft-whitelist/ http://blog.rabidgremlin.com.nyud.net/2012/10/11/did-microso...

27182818284 14y ago

http://blog.rabidgremlin.com.nyud.net/2012/10/11/did-microsoft-just-kill-flash-ie10-wont-run-flash-unless-your-site-is-on-a-microsoft-whitelist/ http://blog.rabidgremlin.com.nyud.net/2012/10/11/did-microso... Instead of a mortal wound from Apple or death by a thousand cuts, it seems like Flash is dying from a series of maiming injuries. Although DRM is often cited for the main reason Flash still exists, from my experience it exists because it is still being taught at community colleges and universities to graphic design students. They enter the workforce, do something at their new job in Flash like a restaurant menu or whatever, it looks good on a desktop and so Flash persists.

franklaemmer 14y ago

Windows is getting better and better. I recently committed a website to a design review site. FLASH pages are not allowed any more. These pages used to be called FLASH–award, now they are called CSS-awards, what comes next?

jiggy2011 14y ago

Somewhat OT and tin foil hat: I was talking to a friend the other day about whether it was best investing time into getting really good at developing for the web vs native mobile/desktop. My argument was that the big advantage of web dev was that you not only had more choice of backend tools but it was also the best way to get your apps to run on any platform including locked down ones without having to worry about app store policies etc. His counter argument was that the browser is becoming the new target for malware etc especially as the new HTML5 APIs become more sophisticated. He thought that it might be likely that some browser APIs would become locked down by platform vendors. In other words if you want your web app to do stuff like WebGL/Local Storage etc you would need to be explicitly whitelisted by the OS or browser vendor. In which case there could be rules like "your web app cannot do xyz, your website must not have content related to abc". Outright website blocking would seem out of the question, but perhaps things like this are the first sign of a move in that kind of direction?

alrs 14y ago

Wishful thinking says that they're taking a kick at Adobe because they're aware of an effort to port Creative Suite to Linux.

Rabidgremlin 14y ago

Sigh... title got edited... somebody didn't read the article. This effects desktop windows 8 too not just mobile

JimmaDaRustla 14y ago

I think this is occurring because of some news released by Microsoft on Monday - Flash will now be packaged with IE by default. This provides a better user experience - never need to download and install/update Flash, but they provide a way to keep it secure. Heard it on today's Security Now. http://twit.tv/show/security-now/373 http://twit.tv/show/security-now/373