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I don’t really have a dog in the fight so to say (aside from running a relatively large IRC network for the passed 22 years)… But I really do wish we had doubl

by dijit 10mo ago

I don’t really have a dog in the fight so to say (aside from running a relatively large IRC network for the passed 22 years)… But I really do wish we had doubled down on XMPP. It was nearly everywhere in the late-00’s early-10’s. If we could have just solved the mobile case (which, was solved, just not in popular server versions) then we would have been in a better place today. Hatred of XML has cost us so many wonderful things, the one that hurts me most is SMF (the solaris init system) which obviated the major issues people have with systemd. Except because it’s using XML people would rather carve off a limb over seriously considering porting it.

mxuribe 10mo ago
Now that i'm looking back at xmpp, i agree that i wish we would have doubled down on xmpp - either to make some things easier for hosting, etc. And, yeah, its funny that you mention about the hatred of xml...i never loved it, but never hated it. Same with json, etc....To me they're just data formats...but so much dislike seemed the cool thing to do back in the day. Ah, well.
phantasmish 10mo ago
It’s so easy to host, and I once implemented a partial in-browser client (using, basically, a web bridge that I also wrote on the other side) in no time, starting from not knowing a single thing about it aside from having used xmpp chat clients in the past. Like getting to the point of status online/offline indicators showing up and messages passing was so easy. I get that I was a far cry from supporting things like encryption extensions, but it’s a great sign when going from nothing to having at least some of a protocol working takes very little time. The web platform’s still (for now) really good and fast at working with xml. Kinda wild we ended up with json everywhere.
Avamander 10mo ago
You say that but has XMPP really improved over the past 10-20 years? The same issues plague it still.
- dijit 10mo ago
  because all the investment (and, crucially: time) has gone elsewhere. I thought I was clear about that? SMF also has not moved in 15 years.
  - tcfhgj 10mo ago
    would XMPP 2.0 still be compatible with XMPP?
    - dijit 10mo ago
      Sure, just standardise a set of XEP’s and ensure federation has some strictness in which XEP’s are used.
  - Avamander 10mo ago
    My point was that "lack of investment" doesn't explain the standstill. If that would be the determining factor IRC should not have seen or should not be seeing any progress either. But we actually do have IRCv3 extensions and quite a few new implementations here and there. There's something else hindering XMPP that it stands so still, alternatively it simply can't be improved.
    - dijit 10mo ago
      People are pathological about IRC (I am one of them), and there’s a small but motivated handful of us. XMPP doesn’t have those people, because there’s little nostalgia and an “ick” feeling about XML. All those people would rather work on Matrix.

by dijit 10mo ago

mxuribe 10mo ago

Now that i'm looking back at xmpp, i agree that i wish we would have doubled down on xmpp - either to make some things easier for hosting, etc. And, yeah, its funny that you mention about the hatred of xml...i never loved it, but never hated it. Same with json, etc....To me they're just data formats...but so much dislike seemed the cool thing to do back in the day. Ah, well.

phantasmish 10mo ago

It’s so easy to host, and I once implemented a partial in-browser client (using, basically, a web bridge that I also wrote on the other side) in no time, starting from not knowing a single thing about it aside from having used xmpp chat clients in the past. Like getting to the point of status online/offline indicators showing up and messages passing was so easy. I get that I was a far cry from supporting things like encryption extensions, but it’s a great sign when going from nothing to having at least some of a protocol working takes very little time. The web platform’s still (for now) really good and fast at working with xml. Kinda wild we ended up with json everywhere.

Avamander 10mo ago

You say that but has XMPP really improved over the past 10-20 years? The same issues plague it still.

dijit 10mo ago
because all the investment (and, crucially: time) has gone elsewhere. I thought I was clear about that? SMF also has not moved in 15 years.
- tcfhgj 10mo ago
  would XMPP 2.0 still be compatible with XMPP?
  - dijit 10mo ago
    Sure, just standardise a set of XEP’s and ensure federation has some strictness in which XEP’s are used.
- Avamander 10mo ago
  My point was that "lack of investment" doesn't explain the standstill. If that would be the determining factor IRC should not have seen or should not be seeing any progress either. But we actually do have IRCv3 extensions and quite a few new implementations here and there. There's something else hindering XMPP that it stands so still, alternatively it simply can't be improved.
  - dijit 10mo ago
    People are pathological about IRC (I am one of them), and there’s a small but motivated handful of us. XMPP doesn’t have those people, because there’s little nostalgia and an “ick” feeling about XML. All those people would rather work on Matrix.