5 ms·

Wing Commander's Chris Roberts returns to gaming with ambitious MMO

45 points by Reltair 14y ago

RobotCaleb 14y ago
I was at his presentation. It sure is shiny. The ships look really cool and I'm a big fan of the way they seem to control. I really hope this takes off. Wing Commander sits in a special place in my heart.
- saraid216 14y ago
  You know, this comment immediately makes me think of this: http://www.codeofhonor.com/blog/starcraft-orcs-in-space-go-down-in-flames http://www.codeofhonor.com/blog/starcraft-orcs-in-space-go-d... Specifically, "As bad as Ion Storm was internally, there was a dark secret that eventually unraveled. It wasn’t until years later, well after the 1996 E3 demo of Dominion Storm, and after StarCraft launched, that we discovered that the Dominion Storm demo was a fake." So not having been there, I have to ask: did you have hands on the controls?
  - CamperBob2 14y ago
    Disclaimer: I haven't seen either of these guys for 15 years. However, I was at Origin in the early 90s, followed by Digital Anvil. Not everything we did turned to gold, to put it mildly, but Chris and Erin didn't rig demos. If they're doing that now, I'll be astonished. It wasn't in our DNA as a company -- either company -- and that ethic came from the top. We were well accustomed to competing with the latest rigged demo from any of several companies that are either entirely forgotten now, or remembered with a snarky chuckle. Our business was basically to ship what other people were promising... eventually, anyway. :)
    - saraid216 14y ago
      That's fair. The article smells of vaporware to me, honestly. Much as I'd love to see something like this happen, I'm really cynical about the MMO industry these days and do not really believe it will happen. If the crowdfunding thing happens, I'll probably put down some money, just to register interest if nothing else... but I'm waiting to see before I believe.
    - jiggy2011 14y ago
      I loved the early 90s Origin games, they are certainly the ones I remember the most fondly. I spent days in Ultima 7 just wandering around completely aimlessly talking to random NPCs and looting dungeons. Were you there during the development of Ultima 8 and 9? Not to be rude, but if so what the hell happened there? Was it simply an emphasis of technology over gameplay and story? These reviews made me chuckle. http://spoonyexperiment.com/2011/02/01/ultima-7-the-black-gate-review/ http://spoonyexperiment.com/2011/02/01/ultima-7-the-black-ga... http://spoonyexperiment.com/2012/01/31/ultima-8-pagan/ http://spoonyexperiment.com/2012/01/31/ultima-8-pagan/ http://spoonyexperiment.com/2012/05/29/ultima-9-ascension/ http://spoonyexperiment.com/2012/05/29/ultima-9-ascension/
      - CamperBob2 14y ago
        I left shortly before U6 came out, so couldn't speak firsthand about anything that happened afterward. A lot of nasty things have been written about the effects of the company's acquisition by Electronic Arts, and most of those things are true. The culture clash was massive. Around the time U9 was being developed, Ultima Online was also becoming the Next Big Thing, and I imagine that splitting development resources between those two huge projects couldn't have done any good. One of them was bound to win more mindshare and attract more funding and in-house talent. Ultima V was the very last one I played all the way through, personally, and I wouldn't be surprised if that's true for Richard as well.
  - RobotCaleb 14y ago
    Nope. But he did demo some combat and completely failed to shoot down any enemies, crashed into his own carrier twice, and then got outrun by the enemies. I think a rigged demo would probably have gone a bit differently. :)
mattmanser 14y ago
I can't say I agree with this at all: Roberts writes on the game's newly launched website that he hopes this dynamic will create a tiered social structure where dedicated players can really distinguish themselves from casual players, and where different factions will be in conflict. Anyone remember the titles you could earn in WoW PvP but could only be achieved by tiny percentages? Or Titans in Eve? Stupid system, stupid idea, stupid to introduce it. Why reward tiny segments of active players for living unhealthily in your game?
- Karunamon 14y ago
  >Why reward tiny segments of active players for living unhealthily Spending the effort to gain high-tier rewards in a game and living healthy are not mutually exclusive.
  - jiggy2011 14y ago
    The thing is, you would either need to make those high-tier rewards accessible to everyone in which case they lose a lot of their shine. Or you need to design it so that only a very small % of players will be able to achieve them. There are those who are willing to play an MMO for 16 hours a day, so if you make them rare enough these are the only people who will be able to achieve them. I remember Star wars galaxies, I didn't play it much myself but I remember "play as a Jedi" being a big selling point and apparently this was in reality only possible if you were literally willing to devote your life to the game. They changed it some years later so just about everyone could become a Jedi and there was much uproar from what I remember.
    - mnicole 14y ago
      What about the fishing competitions in WoW? You could say that it's not a solid bet, but I know more than one person that kept their account activated for the sole purpose of logging in on Sunday mornings to fish and nothing more. Same with those who would only raid 2-3 evenings a week, get their gear or a boss/dungeon achievement and log. I believe there are ways to cater to casuals while still keeping the achievements unique.
jiggy2011 14y ago
So , Linux version? The main thing that concerns me is the graphics, popular MMOs seem to have always had pretty low system requirements. Keeping an MMO running and compelling must have some pretty high costs so you either need a lot of players (which high reqs might exclude) or a high monthly fee.
- RobotCaleb 14y ago
  He didn't mention Linux while I was there, but I'd be surprised if it did come to Linux. PC gaming typically means Windows gaming. But, you knew that, I'm sure. :) I wouldn't expect any big titles to come to Linux until Valve validates that space. What is your concern with the graphics? I don't know that I caught it in your sentence. No monthly fee for this game. Oh, your third paragraph is the concern in your second? It seems he's doing a couple of things here. First, he's appealing to a market by treating them as special[0]. This is a good idea as PC gamers tend to invest pretty heavily in their kit and are likely to support games that show off the capabilities of said kit. The games can be both good and pretty, but sometimes even just pretty will be enough. Second, concentrating on PC allows him to not worry about being burdened by supporting consoles, which means he can push the tech even further. Which goes back to servicing the gamers mentioned in point 1. [0] http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-jnwqezP86Ww/Td_WTq9dxoI/AAAAAAAAAiI/GUzKdsxq4XQ/s1600/pcgamingmasterrace.jpg http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-jnwqezP86Ww/Td_WTq9dxoI/AAAAAAAAAi...
  - jiggy2011 14y ago
    I wondered about Linux because it seems to be a common thing with crowdfunded games as it seems to be a fairly popular OS with people who like kickstarter and the like. He also mentioned that he liked the PC as an "open platform" which made me hopeful (can't get much more open than Linux), the last Chris Roberts game I remember playing ran under DOS so it's not like he has a legacy of Windows development. I didn't realise it was no monthly fee, not sure how the economics of that would work. Running servers to host real-time fast paced space battles is going to require some significant umphf and a very good network. While you are right that there's a demographic of PC gamers who enjoy building high end systems in my experience a lot of people who play MMOs like WoW tend to run them on low end laptops as well as old desktops. Part of the appeal is that you can get your less gaming inclined friend to start playing with you on whatever POS they have lying around. I'm pretty sure blizzard keeps WoWs graphics basic on purpose. Perhaps this is a more targeted product for hard core PC gaming fans, however if they want to make the graphics a big selling point they will have to keep updating these as time goes on and video cards become more powerful. That means they will have to either have very scalable graphical settings, or will rely on their fans upgrading their PCs to keep up with the game. I can imagine it would be pretty annoying to get into playing an MMO and then one day have a patch come out that doubles the triangle count and means you now get 5 fps.
thraveboy 14y ago
Sweet! I can't wait for the Android and iPhone releases of this.. :)
saraid216 14y ago
I would be interested to see what the results of the crowdfunding are; I'd like it validated that such an MMO would be profitable.
xsmasher 14y ago
I can't help thinking of Richard Garriott's Tabula Rasa, which did not do well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabula_Rasa_%28video_game%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabula_Rasa_%28video_game%29 For the youngsters: they're both alums of Origin Systems, storied PC game developer and home of Wing Commander and Ultima.
- mhd 14y ago
  First thing I thought of, too. And your post reminded me that there are people out there who don't know the glory that is Lord British. That dost sadden me.
- ricree 14y ago
  Or for a more recent example, 38 Studios. MMOs are a notoriously hard genre, and while I wish him luck, it doesn't inspire optimism.
Reebz 14y ago
One does not simply build a sandbox. A sandbox evolves like an organism to those who inhabit it. It's taken EVE over 10 years to get to it's current level of polish. Good luck to him, but the article reads with too much overconfidence.
jjm 14y ago
Wing Commander Privateer[1] was one of my favorites back in the day. A chance to do the same but in a MMO like environment would be awesome. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wing_Commander:_Privateer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wing_Commander:_Privateer

45 points by Reltair 14y ago

I was at his presentation. It sure is shiny. The ships look really cool and I'm a big fan of the way they seem to control. I really hope this takes off. Wing Commander sits in a special place in my heart.

saraid216 14y ago
You know, this comment immediately makes me think of this: http://www.codeofhonor.com/blog/starcraft-orcs-in-space-go-down-in-flames http://www.codeofhonor.com/blog/starcraft-orcs-in-space-go-d... Specifically, "As bad as Ion Storm was internally, there was a dark secret that eventually unraveled. It wasn’t until years later, well after the 1996 E3 demo of Dominion Storm, and after StarCraft launched, that we discovered that the Dominion Storm demo was a fake." So not having been there, I have to ask: did you have hands on the controls?
- CamperBob2 14y ago
  Disclaimer: I haven't seen either of these guys for 15 years. However, I was at Origin in the early 90s, followed by Digital Anvil. Not everything we did turned to gold, to put it mildly, but Chris and Erin didn't rig demos. If they're doing that now, I'll be astonished. It wasn't in our DNA as a company -- either company -- and that ethic came from the top. We were well accustomed to competing with the latest rigged demo from any of several companies that are either entirely forgotten now, or remembered with a snarky chuckle. Our business was basically to ship what other people were promising... eventually, anyway. :)
  - saraid216 14y ago
    That's fair. The article smells of vaporware to me, honestly. Much as I'd love to see something like this happen, I'm really cynical about the MMO industry these days and do not really believe it will happen. If the crowdfunding thing happens, I'll probably put down some money, just to register interest if nothing else... but I'm waiting to see before I believe.
  - jiggy2011 14y ago
    I loved the early 90s Origin games, they are certainly the ones I remember the most fondly. I spent days in Ultima 7 just wandering around completely aimlessly talking to random NPCs and looting dungeons. Were you there during the development of Ultima 8 and 9? Not to be rude, but if so what the hell happened there? Was it simply an emphasis of technology over gameplay and story? These reviews made me chuckle. http://spoonyexperiment.com/2011/02/01/ultima-7-the-black-gate-review/ http://spoonyexperiment.com/2011/02/01/ultima-7-the-black-ga... http://spoonyexperiment.com/2012/01/31/ultima-8-pagan/ http://spoonyexperiment.com/2012/01/31/ultima-8-pagan/ http://spoonyexperiment.com/2012/05/29/ultima-9-ascension/ http://spoonyexperiment.com/2012/05/29/ultima-9-ascension/
    - CamperBob2 14y ago
      I left shortly before U6 came out, so couldn't speak firsthand about anything that happened afterward. A lot of nasty things have been written about the effects of the company's acquisition by Electronic Arts, and most of those things are true. The culture clash was massive. Around the time U9 was being developed, Ultima Online was also becoming the Next Big Thing, and I imagine that splitting development resources between those two huge projects couldn't have done any good. One of them was bound to win more mindshare and attract more funding and in-house talent. Ultima V was the very last one I played all the way through, personally, and I wouldn't be surprised if that's true for Richard as well.
- RobotCaleb 14y ago
  Nope. But he did demo some combat and completely failed to shoot down any enemies, crashed into his own carrier twice, and then got outrun by the enemies. I think a rigged demo would probably have gone a bit differently. :)

mattmanser 14y ago

I can't say I agree with this at all: Roberts writes on the game's newly launched website that he hopes this dynamic will create a tiered social structure where dedicated players can really distinguish themselves from casual players, and where different factions will be in conflict. Anyone remember the titles you could earn in WoW PvP but could only be achieved by tiny percentages? Or Titans in Eve? Stupid system, stupid idea, stupid to introduce it. Why reward tiny segments of active players for living unhealthily in your game?

Karunamon 14y ago
>Why reward tiny segments of active players for living unhealthily Spending the effort to gain high-tier rewards in a game and living healthy are not mutually exclusive.
- jiggy2011 14y ago
  The thing is, you would either need to make those high-tier rewards accessible to everyone in which case they lose a lot of their shine. Or you need to design it so that only a very small % of players will be able to achieve them. There are those who are willing to play an MMO for 16 hours a day, so if you make them rare enough these are the only people who will be able to achieve them. I remember Star wars galaxies, I didn't play it much myself but I remember "play as a Jedi" being a big selling point and apparently this was in reality only possible if you were literally willing to devote your life to the game. They changed it some years later so just about everyone could become a Jedi and there was much uproar from what I remember.
  - mnicole 14y ago
    What about the fishing competitions in WoW? You could say that it's not a solid bet, but I know more than one person that kept their account activated for the sole purpose of logging in on Sunday mornings to fish and nothing more. Same with those who would only raid 2-3 evenings a week, get their gear or a boss/dungeon achievement and log. I believe there are ways to cater to casuals while still keeping the achievements unique.

jiggy2011 14y ago

So , Linux version? The main thing that concerns me is the graphics, popular MMOs seem to have always had pretty low system requirements. Keeping an MMO running and compelling must have some pretty high costs so you either need a lot of players (which high reqs might exclude) or a high monthly fee.

RobotCaleb 14y ago
He didn't mention Linux while I was there, but I'd be surprised if it did come to Linux. PC gaming typically means Windows gaming. But, you knew that, I'm sure. :) I wouldn't expect any big titles to come to Linux until Valve validates that space. What is your concern with the graphics? I don't know that I caught it in your sentence. No monthly fee for this game. Oh, your third paragraph is the concern in your second? It seems he's doing a couple of things here. First, he's appealing to a market by treating them as special[0]. This is a good idea as PC gamers tend to invest pretty heavily in their kit and are likely to support games that show off the capabilities of said kit. The games can be both good and pretty, but sometimes even just pretty will be enough. Second, concentrating on PC allows him to not worry about being burdened by supporting consoles, which means he can push the tech even further. Which goes back to servicing the gamers mentioned in point 1. [0] http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-jnwqezP86Ww/Td_WTq9dxoI/AAAAAAAAAiI/GUzKdsxq4XQ/s1600/pcgamingmasterrace.jpg http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-jnwqezP86Ww/Td_WTq9dxoI/AAAAAAAAAi...
- jiggy2011 14y ago
  I wondered about Linux because it seems to be a common thing with crowdfunded games as it seems to be a fairly popular OS with people who like kickstarter and the like. He also mentioned that he liked the PC as an "open platform" which made me hopeful (can't get much more open than Linux), the last Chris Roberts game I remember playing ran under DOS so it's not like he has a legacy of Windows development. I didn't realise it was no monthly fee, not sure how the economics of that would work. Running servers to host real-time fast paced space battles is going to require some significant umphf and a very good network. While you are right that there's a demographic of PC gamers who enjoy building high end systems in my experience a lot of people who play MMOs like WoW tend to run them on low end laptops as well as old desktops. Part of the appeal is that you can get your less gaming inclined friend to start playing with you on whatever POS they have lying around. I'm pretty sure blizzard keeps WoWs graphics basic on purpose. Perhaps this is a more targeted product for hard core PC gaming fans, however if they want to make the graphics a big selling point they will have to keep updating these as time goes on and video cards become more powerful. That means they will have to either have very scalable graphical settings, or will rely on their fans upgrading their PCs to keep up with the game. I can imagine it would be pretty annoying to get into playing an MMO and then one day have a patch come out that doubles the triangle count and means you now get 5 fps.

thraveboy 14y ago

Sweet! I can't wait for the Android and iPhone releases of this.. :)

saraid216 14y ago

I would be interested to see what the results of the crowdfunding are; I'd like it validated that such an MMO would be profitable.

xsmasher 14y ago

I can't help thinking of Richard Garriott's Tabula Rasa, which did not do well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabula_Rasa_%28video_game%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabula_Rasa_%28video_game%29 For the youngsters: they're both alums of Origin Systems, storied PC game developer and home of Wing Commander and Ultima.

mhd 14y ago
First thing I thought of, too. And your post reminded me that there are people out there who don't know the glory that is Lord British. That dost sadden me.
ricree 14y ago
Or for a more recent example, 38 Studios. MMOs are a notoriously hard genre, and while I wish him luck, it doesn't inspire optimism.

Reebz 14y ago

One does not simply build a sandbox. A sandbox evolves like an organism to those who inhabit it. It's taken EVE over 10 years to get to it's current level of polish. Good luck to him, but the article reads with too much overconfidence.

jjm 14y ago

Wing Commander Privateer[1] was one of my favorites back in the day. A chance to do the same but in a MMO like environment would be awesome. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wing_Commander:_Privateer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wing_Commander:_Privateer