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There is a saying that you should learn the enemy language to understand them. I suppose the time has come again. Why else would you learn it otherwise? It is n

There is a saying that you should learn the enemy language to understand them. I suppose the time has come again. Why else would you learn it otherwise? It is not like many of us can even visit the place without consequences. The books were translated years ago anyway. Slavic languages are similar, IMO you just need to bombard your brain with a lot of it to start discerning the patterns (just like any other language I guess). Reading is not necessary, writing likewise. I never had a single lesson but speak fluently in russian and ok polish, can understand ukrainian, can read also. Given that you need content for your brain it would be hard to find something nice created in russia recently, might be easier to start with polish if you are in the west.

jwr 10mo ago
Polish person here. Don't try to learn Polish. It's insanely difficult, the "rules" make no sense whatsoever, and almost anybody that you'll want to talk to will be able to communicate with you in English. As for Russian, I also don't see any point in learning it. I was forcefully taught Russian in primary school back when Poland was under Russian yoke. The general idea here is that we'd like not to be in that situation ever again. Learning the language of a nation where a significant percentage of population supports war and killing is not something I'd consider.
- rvba 10mo ago
  Why is every time you see a Polish person they have an inferiority syndrome and and shit on their own country?
  - jwr 10mo ago
    I… don't think that's what I did?
- otabdeveloper4 10mo ago
  > Learning the language of a nation where a significant percentage of population supports war and killing is not something I'd consider. So, when do you plan to unlearn English?
  - yakshaving_jgt 10mo ago
    Do you believe that a significant proportion of native English speakers support the idea of imperialistic invasion and occupation, and the rape and torture of women and children?
    - viccis 10mo ago
      Yes. This has been incredibly consistent throughout the existence of the US and UK in particular.
      - yakshaving_jgt 10mo ago
        That seems like a pretty wild thing to say. What is your source for this?
        viccis 10mo ago
        Which war? The Iraq War started with around 62% support. When the US started its involvement in the Korean War (one of the biggest mass atrocities we'd carried out since, well, about 5 years earlier when we atom bombed Japan...), around 78% supported it. Around 71% of Americans supported a large scale troop invasion of Afghanistan when it started. Honestly, even for the wars with bad public perception, like Vietnam, it was mostly because Americans were tired of our guys being drafted just to be turned into dogfood on the other side of the world, not because we were occupying and brutalizing them.
        yakshaving_jgt 10mo ago
        Let's just pick one, so as to not get distracted. > The Iraq War started with around 62% support. I think the essence of my question is what did "support" look like here? I can empathise with the position that the invasion of Iraq was warranted (which is not to say that I agree with it), in the context of the September 11 attacks. What I haven't seen is any popular support for the slaughter of civilians or the annexation of territory — there is no grand narrative that the USA is actually liberating its historical lands in Iraq. I think the support was conditional, and based on claims that later collapsed. The end goal was withdrawal after regime change. What I haven't seen is any analogue to egregious instances like this[0], of which there are many in russia's war against Ukraine. [0]: https://iwpr.net/global-voices/go-ahead-and-rape-ukrainian-women https://iwpr.net/global-voices/go-ahead-and-rape-ukrainian-w...
- fasbiner 10mo ago
  > Learning the language of a nation where a significant percentage of population supports war and killing is not something I'd consider. Are you a european/white supremacist who doesn't consider the victims of the anglosphere to be human, or are you historically illiterate, even of extremely recent history? I don't see a third option here since you learned english also, would appreciate an explanation for this special pleading rather than furious downvoting when identifying basic empirical discrepancies in the face of what looks to be materially false claims.
  - sublimefire 10mo ago
    trolling is really an art ^^^^ the references were about russian federation waging an imperialistic type of a war to conquer land when they have the most land already
    - fasbiner 10mo ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Invasions_by_Great_Britain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Invasions_by_Great_Br... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_States_in_the_21st_century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_Uni... This kind of historical blindness and hysterical hypocrisy has never ended well. Is HN becoming a place where we should expect people to lie to us and promote trivially disprovably rationales in order to foment cultural and racial hatreds based on current political conveniences? "Never believe they are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. By giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert."
    - wartywhoa23 10mo ago
      You're really deep into painting everyone with the same brush, aren't you? Define russian federation first. Am I it? Is it land? Is it government? Is it those zombie mercenaries who execute criminal orders? Is it those who got jailed after protests against war? Is it those who got conscripted? Those who fled the country to avoid that? Those who struggle to meet ends? Those cruising aboard 150 meter yachts? Who is this elusive mrs. russian federation?
- sublimefire 10mo ago
  Polish is great because there is a lot of content to learn from. And it is a gateway to other western slavic languages in the region. I basically forced myself to learn it because Manga was all in polish at the time. Their movie industry is great as well.
  - kubanczyk 10mo ago
    Being able to read Stanisław Lem in original I'd consider possibly the biggest perk.
- Koshkin 10mo ago
  > Learning the language of a nation A nation doesn't own the language.
- coder68 10mo ago
  As someone studying Polish, and making excellent progress, I mostly agree with your take. If you want to explore other languages, something like Spanish will get you much more mileage. Polish is difficult and the community of speakers isn't exactly warm to foreigners or people acquiring the language. On the other hand, if you truly enjoy languages and are passionate about them, I have found Polish to be really interesting and beautiful in its own way. Definitely not recommended, but still enjoyable to read/write/speak.
bromuro 10mo ago
Russian is spoken by 250 million people. I hope they are not all your enemies.
- sublimefire 10mo ago
  I think you miss the point. I am talking about the incentive to learn somebody’s native tongue. I doubt people want to know it to meet an emigrant in Germany and have a conversation in russian. Equally I do mot learn spanish to talk to my neighbours but to have a conversation with a local in spain.
  - jbstack 10mo ago
    But by your own reasoning, you're also saying it's reasonable to learn Russian as a way to better understand Russia because your country happens to be opposed to them. If you accept that this relatively obscure reason is a valid motivation (which I agree it can be) then you must also accept that there are all sorts of other motivations that are equally valid including "so I can speak to emigrants" or even just "because I find it fun".
    - oytis 10mo ago
      It's not an obscure reason, many people engage with the enemy professionally. That's one of the most frequent motives to learn a language probably. Either you want to immigrate to a country or you want to conduct business with it or it's your enemy and you need to undersrand it. First two options are out for the Western world at the moment
      - FpUser 10mo ago
        >"First two options are out for the Western world at the moment" The West still trades with Russia. Obviously at reduced rate and sometimes under the table.
- varjag 10mo ago
  Only perhaps 90-100 million of them are Russian citizens. For many others it's a second language too.
b42 10mo ago
Careful, by learning russian you also become an oppressed russian minority that needs to be "liberated". It's not just your brain that will get bombarded.
- wartywhoa23 10mo ago
  You've just associated actions of a certain fascist government with the whole language spoken by hundreds of millions of people who are against the war it waged and which is orders of magnitude older. That's not very bright of you, to put it mildly. Mind you, the language argument was just as well employed by the putin's propagandists, as in something along the lines of "just listen how silly Ukrainian sub-language sounds, lol". Which is an argument every sane human being finds disgusting and stupid beyond all comprehension, of course.
  - dandanua 10mo ago
    > hundreds of millions of people who are against the war Lie #1. If they were against the war there would be no war. > That's not very bright of you, to put it mildly. Lie #2. He tells facts. > "just listen how silly Ukrainian sub-language sounds, lol". Lie #3. This is not what Russian propaganda said. They said Ukraine will not allow to speak Russian and will punish for speaking it. > Which is an argument every sane human being finds disgusting and stupid beyond all comprehension, of course. The language itself is not guilty, of course. It's the speakers.
    - Muromec 10mo ago
      Their propaganda was saying a lot of different things, including both mentioned above. Ukrainian is magical language that is both the same as russian (so not real language of its own) and difficult to learn, so russian not being an official language is literally genocide.
      - dandanua 10mo ago
        You should learn what the word "literally" means, apart from the truth about Ukrainian language.
licyeus 10mo ago
There is a large, growing Russian diaspora and many writers/artists create works in exile. The language helps if you want to understand the millions who left their homes out of principle, but they are not the "enemy".
wartywhoa23 10mo ago
> There is a saying that you should learn the enemy language to understand them. Мы не враги, друг мой..
- sublimefire 10mo ago
  v kremle s taboj nisoglasny
  - wartywhoa23 10mo ago
    А в белом доме или в парламенте евросоюза с тобой согласны по всем вопросам?
    - Muromec 10mo ago
      [flagged]
      - wartywhoa23 10mo ago
        Dude, speaking in stereotypes doesn't do you any favor.
      - throw-the-towel 10mo ago
        All that energy, wasted away from the front lines.
- throw-the-towel 10mo ago
  You seem to be still stuck in an "end of history" mindset, unfortunately.
  - wartywhoa23 10mo ago
    Had to look that up: "The end of history is a political and philosophical concept that supposes that a particular political, economic, or social system may develop that would constitute the end-point of humanity's sociocultural evolution and the final form of human government." So are you implying that I should start treating every foreigner as an enemy just because we as a humanity didn't, and maybe will never come up with a political system that will bring peace on Earth once and for all? Allright then, I'll still regard most of you at least as non-enemies, if you so object being friends with me; but you are free to continue considering me your enemy if your current political fartwinds turn your wind vane that way.
deleted 10mo ago
[deleted]
listeria 10mo ago
> The books were translated years ago anyway. Translated books lack the nuance or tone of the originals, which you would be missing out of, and most of the time you don't even realise.
Razengan 10mo ago
wow, so nobody should have visited Murica after they nuked Japan and firebombed Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, and Iraq etc. Oh but that's fine because they're the Good Guys™ > It is not like many of us can even visit the place without consequences. There are traveloggers on YouTube visiting Russia in recent months and they seem to be fine. > Given that you need content for your brain it would be hard to find something nice created in Russia recently Oh boy.. wow.. really
cpursley 10mo ago
This is poorly informed, it’s quite easy to get a visa to Russia. Easier than many other countries, actually. Just follow the laws and use common sense (same rule applies when you are traveler anywhere) and you will be fine. Don't believe me just check YouTube, plenty of bloggers go there - “Sly’s Life” channel, Russia videos. He also goes to Ukraine after before you start calling me or him a shill for Putin or whatever.

jwr 10mo ago

Polish person here. Don't try to learn Polish. It's insanely difficult, the "rules" make no sense whatsoever, and almost anybody that you'll want to talk to will be able to communicate with you in English. As for Russian, I also don't see any point in learning it. I was forcefully taught Russian in primary school back when Poland was under Russian yoke. The general idea here is that we'd like not to be in that situation ever again. Learning the language of a nation where a significant percentage of population supports war and killing is not something I'd consider.

rvba 10mo ago
Why is every time you see a Polish person they have an inferiority syndrome and and shit on their own country?
- jwr 10mo ago
  I… don't think that's what I did?
otabdeveloper4 10mo ago
> Learning the language of a nation where a significant percentage of population supports war and killing is not something I'd consider. So, when do you plan to unlearn English?
- yakshaving_jgt 10mo ago
  Do you believe that a significant proportion of native English speakers support the idea of imperialistic invasion and occupation, and the rape and torture of women and children?
  - viccis 10mo ago
    Yes. This has been incredibly consistent throughout the existence of the US and UK in particular.
    - yakshaving_jgt 10mo ago
      That seems like a pretty wild thing to say. What is your source for this?
      - viccis 10mo ago
        Which war? The Iraq War started with around 62% support. When the US started its involvement in the Korean War (one of the biggest mass atrocities we'd carried out since, well, about 5 years earlier when we atom bombed Japan...), around 78% supported it. Around 71% of Americans supported a large scale troop invasion of Afghanistan when it started. Honestly, even for the wars with bad public perception, like Vietnam, it was mostly because Americans were tired of our guys being drafted just to be turned into dogfood on the other side of the world, not because we were occupying and brutalizing them.
        yakshaving_jgt 10mo ago
        Let's just pick one, so as to not get distracted. > The Iraq War started with around 62% support. I think the essence of my question is what did "support" look like here? I can empathise with the position that the invasion of Iraq was warranted (which is not to say that I agree with it), in the context of the September 11 attacks. What I haven't seen is any popular support for the slaughter of civilians or the annexation of territory — there is no grand narrative that the USA is actually liberating its historical lands in Iraq. I think the support was conditional, and based on claims that later collapsed. The end goal was withdrawal after regime change. What I haven't seen is any analogue to egregious instances like this[0], of which there are many in russia's war against Ukraine. [0]: https://iwpr.net/global-voices/go-ahead-and-rape-ukrainian-women https://iwpr.net/global-voices/go-ahead-and-rape-ukrainian-w...
fasbiner 10mo ago
> Learning the language of a nation where a significant percentage of population supports war and killing is not something I'd consider. Are you a european/white supremacist who doesn't consider the victims of the anglosphere to be human, or are you historically illiterate, even of extremely recent history? I don't see a third option here since you learned english also, would appreciate an explanation for this special pleading rather than furious downvoting when identifying basic empirical discrepancies in the face of what looks to be materially false claims.
- sublimefire 10mo ago
  trolling is really an art ^^^^ the references were about russian federation waging an imperialistic type of a war to conquer land when they have the most land already
  - fasbiner 10mo ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Invasions_by_Great_Britain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Invasions_by_Great_Br... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_States_in_the_21st_century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_Uni... This kind of historical blindness and hysterical hypocrisy has never ended well. Is HN becoming a place where we should expect people to lie to us and promote trivially disprovably rationales in order to foment cultural and racial hatreds based on current political conveniences? "Never believe they are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. By giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert."
  - wartywhoa23 10mo ago
    You're really deep into painting everyone with the same brush, aren't you? Define russian federation first. Am I it? Is it land? Is it government? Is it those zombie mercenaries who execute criminal orders? Is it those who got jailed after protests against war? Is it those who got conscripted? Those who fled the country to avoid that? Those who struggle to meet ends? Those cruising aboard 150 meter yachts? Who is this elusive mrs. russian federation?
sublimefire 10mo ago
Polish is great because there is a lot of content to learn from. And it is a gateway to other western slavic languages in the region. I basically forced myself to learn it because Manga was all in polish at the time. Their movie industry is great as well.
- kubanczyk 10mo ago
  Being able to read Stanisław Lem in original I'd consider possibly the biggest perk.
Koshkin 10mo ago
> Learning the language of a nation A nation doesn't own the language.
coder68 10mo ago
As someone studying Polish, and making excellent progress, I mostly agree with your take. If you want to explore other languages, something like Spanish will get you much more mileage. Polish is difficult and the community of speakers isn't exactly warm to foreigners or people acquiring the language. On the other hand, if you truly enjoy languages and are passionate about them, I have found Polish to be really interesting and beautiful in its own way. Definitely not recommended, but still enjoyable to read/write/speak.

bromuro 10mo ago

Russian is spoken by 250 million people. I hope they are not all your enemies.

sublimefire 10mo ago
I think you miss the point. I am talking about the incentive to learn somebody’s native tongue. I doubt people want to know it to meet an emigrant in Germany and have a conversation in russian. Equally I do mot learn spanish to talk to my neighbours but to have a conversation with a local in spain.
- jbstack 10mo ago
  But by your own reasoning, you're also saying it's reasonable to learn Russian as a way to better understand Russia because your country happens to be opposed to them. If you accept that this relatively obscure reason is a valid motivation (which I agree it can be) then you must also accept that there are all sorts of other motivations that are equally valid including "so I can speak to emigrants" or even just "because I find it fun".
  - oytis 10mo ago
    It's not an obscure reason, many people engage with the enemy professionally. That's one of the most frequent motives to learn a language probably. Either you want to immigrate to a country or you want to conduct business with it or it's your enemy and you need to undersrand it. First two options are out for the Western world at the moment
    - FpUser 10mo ago
      >"First two options are out for the Western world at the moment" The West still trades with Russia. Obviously at reduced rate and sometimes under the table.
varjag 10mo ago
Only perhaps 90-100 million of them are Russian citizens. For many others it's a second language too.

b42 10mo ago

Careful, by learning russian you also become an oppressed russian minority that needs to be "liberated". It's not just your brain that will get bombarded.

wartywhoa23 10mo ago
You've just associated actions of a certain fascist government with the whole language spoken by hundreds of millions of people who are against the war it waged and which is orders of magnitude older. That's not very bright of you, to put it mildly. Mind you, the language argument was just as well employed by the putin's propagandists, as in something along the lines of "just listen how silly Ukrainian sub-language sounds, lol". Which is an argument every sane human being finds disgusting and stupid beyond all comprehension, of course.
- dandanua 10mo ago
  > hundreds of millions of people who are against the war Lie #1. If they were against the war there would be no war. > That's not very bright of you, to put it mildly. Lie #2. He tells facts. > "just listen how silly Ukrainian sub-language sounds, lol". Lie #3. This is not what Russian propaganda said. They said Ukraine will not allow to speak Russian and will punish for speaking it. > Which is an argument every sane human being finds disgusting and stupid beyond all comprehension, of course. The language itself is not guilty, of course. It's the speakers.
  - Muromec 10mo ago
    Their propaganda was saying a lot of different things, including both mentioned above. Ukrainian is magical language that is both the same as russian (so not real language of its own) and difficult to learn, so russian not being an official language is literally genocide.
    - dandanua 10mo ago
      You should learn what the word "literally" means, apart from the truth about Ukrainian language.

licyeus 10mo ago

There is a large, growing Russian diaspora and many writers/artists create works in exile. The language helps if you want to understand the millions who left their homes out of principle, but they are not the "enemy".

wartywhoa23 10mo ago

> There is a saying that you should learn the enemy language to understand them. Мы не враги, друг мой..

sublimefire 10mo ago
v kremle s taboj nisoglasny
- wartywhoa23 10mo ago
  А в белом доме или в парламенте евросоюза с тобой согласны по всем вопросам?
  - Muromec 10mo ago
    [flagged]
    - wartywhoa23 10mo ago
      Dude, speaking in stereotypes doesn't do you any favor.
    - throw-the-towel 10mo ago
      All that energy, wasted away from the front lines.
throw-the-towel 10mo ago
You seem to be still stuck in an "end of history" mindset, unfortunately.
- wartywhoa23 10mo ago
  Had to look that up: "The end of history is a political and philosophical concept that supposes that a particular political, economic, or social system may develop that would constitute the end-point of humanity's sociocultural evolution and the final form of human government." So are you implying that I should start treating every foreigner as an enemy just because we as a humanity didn't, and maybe will never come up with a political system that will bring peace on Earth once and for all? Allright then, I'll still regard most of you at least as non-enemies, if you so object being friends with me; but you are free to continue considering me your enemy if your current political fartwinds turn your wind vane that way.

deleted 10mo ago

[deleted]

listeria 10mo ago

> The books were translated years ago anyway. Translated books lack the nuance or tone of the originals, which you would be missing out of, and most of the time you don't even realise.

Razengan 10mo ago

wow, so nobody should have visited Murica after they nuked Japan and firebombed Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, and Iraq etc. Oh but that's fine because they're the Good Guys™ > It is not like many of us can even visit the place without consequences. There are traveloggers on YouTube visiting Russia in recent months and they seem to be fine. > Given that you need content for your brain it would be hard to find something nice created in Russia recently Oh boy.. wow.. really

cpursley 10mo ago

This is poorly informed, it’s quite easy to get a visa to Russia. Easier than many other countries, actually. Just follow the laws and use common sense (same rule applies when you are traveler anywhere) and you will be fine. Don't believe me just check YouTube, plenty of bloggers go there - “Sly’s Life” channel, Russia videos. He also goes to Ukraine after before you start calling me or him a shill for Putin or whatever.