4 ms·

This does nothing to protect anonymity as you are still assigned a unique code that has been tied to your ID at the liquor store.

by CrossVR 10mo ago

fc417fc802 10mo ago
Historically liquor store checks were purely visual. These days they are often digital, meaning claims about privacy might (or might not) be outdated. The general principle still applies though. The physical infrastructure already exists, the ID checks do not necessarily need to be digitized or recorded, and even if they are the issued tokens don't need to be tied to the check. Grocery stores already sell age restricted items as well as gift cards that require activation. The state could issue "age check cards" that you could purchase for some nominal fee. That would require approximately zero additional infrastructure in most of the industrialized world. The efficacy would presumably be equivalent to that for alcohol and tobacco.
- CrossVR 10mo ago
  I don't trust that the information about my identity would not be recorded while selling me my "free speech token". So the chilling effect on free speech would be exactly the same.
  - fc417fc802 10mo ago
    That would largely depend on the implementation details I think. Both those of the ID check itself as well as the precise nature of the tokens. Consider a somewhat extreme example. A preprinted paper ticket with nothing more than a serial number on it. The clerk only visually inspects the ID document then enters the serial number into a web portal and hands it to you. When you go to "redeem" it the service relays the number back to the government server rather than your local device doing so directly. That would be far more privacy preserving than the vast majority of present day clearnet activity.
    - CrossVR 10mo ago
      How would I know the Clerk wasn't instructed to record the name from my ID? Also this runs into the same problems as voter ID laws, not everyone has an ID that they can show at a liquor store.
      - fc417fc802 10mo ago
        Because you're standing there watching him. Have you ever witnessed him record your name or anything else when you purchase alcohol? Given the (admittedly rather restrictive and unlikely) implementation I described this quickly approaches the level of paranoid conspiracy. Yeah, it runs into the same socioeconomic problems. Not just voter ID but also tobacco, alcohol, most weapons, and in many places other than the US medical care just to name a few. So it's already a well established problem that people keep and eye out for and at least try to address. Consider that the alternatives are the continued normalized unfettered access of brainrot by young children or else requiring an ID check in a manner that blatantly compromises privacy. On the whole the liquor store approach seems like a good solution to me. To be fair there is another alternative that for some reason seems widely unpopular. Make headers indicating age restricted content a requirement and legally require the OEM configuration of devices to support parental controls based on such headers. That would be a slightly less efficacious solution but would involve noticeably less ID checking.
      - triceratops 10mo ago
        Is photographic memory a common job requirement for clerks? Also usually once you turn a certain age they stop asking you for ID. Again, I'm not aware of how things work in place where they customarily scan and store your ID for alcohol purchases. I would lobby my legislators and fight this odious practice tooth and nail. The store is almost certainly selling that information.
    - triceratops 10mo ago
      > The clerk only visually inspects the ID document then enters the serial number into a web portal and hands it to you. No absolutely not. There's no need for it. We don't require Internet connected beer cans to phone home to a government server and recheck your driver's license when you're cracking them open. > When you go to "redeem" it the service relays the number back to the government server rather than your local device doing so directly Your possession of the token when you enter it into your social media account is proof enough that you're of age. The social media website only needs to call the token issuer's API to verify its validity. And all the token issuer should know is it's a valid token sold to a buyer of legal age. Anything more is needlessly complicated and risks anonymity. No recording of IDs in any way, shape or form whatsoever. And there's no need to involve the government or government servers in any of the implementation or technology. It can be an open, published standard. Any company that can get their cards in stores, and sold with age verification, should be able to participate. All participants can be periodically inspected by the government to ensure compliance with standards.
  - balaji1 10mo ago
    What if the digital infra that issues the token is state or Federal software? That should significantly reduce privacy concerns?
    - fc417fc802 10mo ago
      Wouldn't that just increase concerns? When it comes to bad actors in this scenario the primary candidate is the state itself.
- triceratops 10mo ago
  In my proposal private companies would issue the "age check cards" for sale, not the state. And I don't know how things work in other places, but I've never had my ID scanned when buying alcohol. These days clerks don't even ask me for ID because I obviously appear to be legal age. In my proposal the token would be a scratch off card with a unique code. It can't be associated with the transaction.
- smt88 10mo ago
  I live in the US and haven't had my ID digitally scanned at a bar or liquor store in 10 years, and it only ever happened a couple of times.
triceratops 10mo ago
I've never had my ID recorded at any liquor store in my life. I've bought alcohol in multiple countries. If that happens where you live I'd fight to have that practice banned legally for alcohol and tobacco purchases. Stores are definitely selling it to insurance companies. Also after I had a certain number of birthdays, clerks have stopped demanding my ID. So my purchases are pretty much anonymous. The card should be issued by a private company, or ideally, multiple companies. And it should be a scratch-off card with a unique code, so that codes can't be tied to transactions.
- Y_Y 10mo ago
  And there should be the possibility too win cash prizes! You know what, forget the age thing.
  - triceratops 10mo ago
    This, but seriously. Maybe some age token company might also run a raffle or other promotion. EDIT: Because age verification tokens will likely be a commodity, low-margin business with little differentiation. So I assume companies will do stuff to make their token more attractive than the competition.
- heavyset_go 10mo ago
  In my state, they scan your ID and check it with the state's database. Store policy is usually to do it for everyone, even if they obviously are above the age of 21, and the state mandates ID checks for anyone suspected to be 27 or below.
  - triceratops 9mo ago
    So change the law in your state.

This does nothing to protect anonymity as you are still assigned a unique code that has been tied to your ID at the liquor store.

by CrossVR 10mo ago

This does nothing to protect anonymity as you are still assigned a unique code that has been tied to your ID at the liquor store.

fc417fc802 10mo ago

Historically liquor store checks were purely visual. These days they are often digital, meaning claims about privacy might (or might not) be outdated. The general principle still applies though. The physical infrastructure already exists, the ID checks do not necessarily need to be digitized or recorded, and even if they are the issued tokens don't need to be tied to the check. Grocery stores already sell age restricted items as well as gift cards that require activation. The state could issue "age check cards" that you could purchase for some nominal fee. That would require approximately zero additional infrastructure in most of the industrialized world. The efficacy would presumably be equivalent to that for alcohol and tobacco.

CrossVR 10mo ago
I don't trust that the information about my identity would not be recorded while selling me my "free speech token". So the chilling effect on free speech would be exactly the same.
- fc417fc802 10mo ago
  That would largely depend on the implementation details I think. Both those of the ID check itself as well as the precise nature of the tokens. Consider a somewhat extreme example. A preprinted paper ticket with nothing more than a serial number on it. The clerk only visually inspects the ID document then enters the serial number into a web portal and hands it to you. When you go to "redeem" it the service relays the number back to the government server rather than your local device doing so directly. That would be far more privacy preserving than the vast majority of present day clearnet activity.
  - CrossVR 10mo ago
    How would I know the Clerk wasn't instructed to record the name from my ID? Also this runs into the same problems as voter ID laws, not everyone has an ID that they can show at a liquor store.
    - fc417fc802 10mo ago
      Because you're standing there watching him. Have you ever witnessed him record your name or anything else when you purchase alcohol? Given the (admittedly rather restrictive and unlikely) implementation I described this quickly approaches the level of paranoid conspiracy. Yeah, it runs into the same socioeconomic problems. Not just voter ID but also tobacco, alcohol, most weapons, and in many places other than the US medical care just to name a few. So it's already a well established problem that people keep and eye out for and at least try to address. Consider that the alternatives are the continued normalized unfettered access of brainrot by young children or else requiring an ID check in a manner that blatantly compromises privacy. On the whole the liquor store approach seems like a good solution to me. To be fair there is another alternative that for some reason seems widely unpopular. Make headers indicating age restricted content a requirement and legally require the OEM configuration of devices to support parental controls based on such headers. That would be a slightly less efficacious solution but would involve noticeably less ID checking.
    - triceratops 10mo ago
      Is photographic memory a common job requirement for clerks? Also usually once you turn a certain age they stop asking you for ID. Again, I'm not aware of how things work in place where they customarily scan and store your ID for alcohol purchases. I would lobby my legislators and fight this odious practice tooth and nail. The store is almost certainly selling that information.
  - triceratops 10mo ago
    > The clerk only visually inspects the ID document then enters the serial number into a web portal and hands it to you. No absolutely not. There's no need for it. We don't require Internet connected beer cans to phone home to a government server and recheck your driver's license when you're cracking them open. > When you go to "redeem" it the service relays the number back to the government server rather than your local device doing so directly Your possession of the token when you enter it into your social media account is proof enough that you're of age. The social media website only needs to call the token issuer's API to verify its validity. And all the token issuer should know is it's a valid token sold to a buyer of legal age. Anything more is needlessly complicated and risks anonymity. No recording of IDs in any way, shape or form whatsoever. And there's no need to involve the government or government servers in any of the implementation or technology. It can be an open, published standard. Any company that can get their cards in stores, and sold with age verification, should be able to participate. All participants can be periodically inspected by the government to ensure compliance with standards.
- balaji1 10mo ago
  What if the digital infra that issues the token is state or Federal software? That should significantly reduce privacy concerns?
  - fc417fc802 10mo ago
    Wouldn't that just increase concerns? When it comes to bad actors in this scenario the primary candidate is the state itself.
triceratops 10mo ago
In my proposal private companies would issue the "age check cards" for sale, not the state. And I don't know how things work in other places, but I've never had my ID scanned when buying alcohol. These days clerks don't even ask me for ID because I obviously appear to be legal age. In my proposal the token would be a scratch off card with a unique code. It can't be associated with the transaction.
smt88 10mo ago
I live in the US and haven't had my ID digitally scanned at a bar or liquor store in 10 years, and it only ever happened a couple of times.

triceratops 10mo ago

I've never had my ID recorded at any liquor store in my life. I've bought alcohol in multiple countries. If that happens where you live I'd fight to have that practice banned legally for alcohol and tobacco purchases. Stores are definitely selling it to insurance companies. Also after I had a certain number of birthdays, clerks have stopped demanding my ID. So my purchases are pretty much anonymous. The card should be issued by a private company, or ideally, multiple companies. And it should be a scratch-off card with a unique code, so that codes can't be tied to transactions.

Y_Y 10mo ago
And there should be the possibility too win cash prizes! You know what, forget the age thing.
- triceratops 10mo ago
  This, but seriously. Maybe some age token company might also run a raffle or other promotion. EDIT: Because age verification tokens will likely be a commodity, low-margin business with little differentiation. So I assume companies will do stuff to make their token more attractive than the competition.
heavyset_go 10mo ago
In my state, they scan your ID and check it with the state's database. Store policy is usually to do it for everyone, even if they obviously are above the age of 21, and the state mandates ID checks for anyone suspected to be 27 or below.
- triceratops 9mo ago
  So change the law in your state.