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I have the sneaking suspicion that there are a lot of coders contributing to this recent rash of CSS vs. table discussions who flat-out don't know how to write

I have the sneaking suspicion that there are a lot of coders contributing to this recent rash of CSS vs. table discussions who flat-out don't know how to write CSS very well, and can't be bothered to learn. That was my obligatory quasi-offensive hook to get you reading. Now, before you actually get angry... there's nothing wrong with that! You're a coder! Do what you do best - write awesome useful stuff! ...and don't be afraid to acknowledge that there's a language out there that looks like code, but that you don't have a handle on. As someone who has spent the last several years doing nothing but writing HTML and CSS in a professional capacity, I am here to tell you that if all you beautiful, intelligent hackers out there (I'm only being facetious about the beautiful part, 'cause I've seen some of you ;) really understood front-end layout the way you understand all your programmy stuff (which I do NOT), we wouldn't be having this discussion. If you're just working on a personal project, or trying to hammer out the beta version of your web app... sure, use tables, so you're not wasting time trying to do something that's not your core competency. However, if you're taking it beyond that, or trying to get into front-end stuff in a professional capacity, you need know CSS like the back of your hand. Someone who's competent at layout should be able to write something from scratch that does whatever they want it to without having to debug it for hours. If you're at the point where your biggest problems would be solved by using table layout instead of CSS, you're probably not at a point on the CSS learning curve where it's appropriate to make assertions about which layout technique is superior. All that said, if you're a coder, why do you want to get into layout anyway? Your skills are WAY more valuable... designers like me are just here to make your work look good ;)

josefresco 18y ago
I'm not a coder (pro designer for 9 years) and usually back most arguments made for Tables. Sure CSS is slightly more evolved but sometimes using older tech makes much more sense for other reasons (besides content vs layout). Also support for Table layouts is still strong and there's no compelling reason to upgrade for most webmasters. However I'll agree with your assessment about coders being too lazy to learn proper HTML. ducks
daleharvey 18y ago
I dont want to speak for everyone at least but I dont particularly agree with thin divide between programmers and designers, the lack of gap is one of the reasons that the web is so popular. While I havent seen that many programmers who can produce aesthetically brilliant design, I have seen far less designers that know nearly as much about the technical limitations of css layouts as the typical web programmer. There are solid situations where css (as much as I love it) just isnt capable and isnt the best solution, it isnt just down to lack of knowledge.
fauigerzigerk 18y ago
Well, is there anything you have to say on the substance of this debate? The good thing about Ron Garret's article is that he said specifically why he thinks that CSS is unsuitable for doing layouts. You're free to come up with a counter argument. Instead what you do is talk in general terms about the competence of people whose CSS competence you know nothing about. That's just not very convincing. And by the way, you're "argument" reminds me of what C++ advocates keep going on about. Templates are turing complete, etc, you just need know how to use them. But even if competent CSS experts can make most things work, that doesn't mean they wouldn't be much more productive using something better suited to layout.
- pj 18y ago
  * that doesn't mean they wouldn't be much more productive using something better suited to layout* What would you suggest is better suited to layouts than CSS?
  - fauigerzigerk 18y ago
    I agree with Ron Garret that tables are a better fit in most cases, even though they do have their own drawbacks that I'm not denying. I don't buy the argument that tables somehow imply semantics that contradict their use in layouting. Tables have no semantics without a formal system that lends them semantics (like the relational model). I'm not aware that the W3C or anyone else defined the formal meaning of tables, and since HTML is a UI technology I don't see why "table" should not be interpreted as a form of laying out content in rows and columns.
    - tripngroove 18y ago
      "Tables should not be used purely as a means to layout document content as this may present problems when rendering to non-visual media. Additionally, when used with graphics, these tables may force users to scroll horizontally to view a table designed on a system with a larger display. To minimize these problems, authors should use style sheets to control layout rather than tables." http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/tables.html#h-11.2.1 http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/tables.html#h-11.2.1
eli 18y ago
...flat-out don't know how to write CSS very well... Sounds a bit like an ad hominem attack to me
sam_in_nyc 18y ago
Can I hire you?

josefresco 18y ago

I'm not a coder (pro designer for 9 years) and usually back most arguments made for Tables. Sure CSS is slightly more evolved but sometimes using older tech makes much more sense for other reasons (besides content vs layout). Also support for Table layouts is still strong and there's no compelling reason to upgrade for most webmasters. However I'll agree with your assessment about coders being too lazy to learn proper HTML. ducks

daleharvey 18y ago

I dont want to speak for everyone at least but I dont particularly agree with thin divide between programmers and designers, the lack of gap is one of the reasons that the web is so popular. While I havent seen that many programmers who can produce aesthetically brilliant design, I have seen far less designers that know nearly as much about the technical limitations of css layouts as the typical web programmer. There are solid situations where css (as much as I love it) just isnt capable and isnt the best solution, it isnt just down to lack of knowledge.

fauigerzigerk 18y ago

Well, is there anything you have to say on the substance of this debate? The good thing about Ron Garret's article is that he said specifically why he thinks that CSS is unsuitable for doing layouts. You're free to come up with a counter argument. Instead what you do is talk in general terms about the competence of people whose CSS competence you know nothing about. That's just not very convincing. And by the way, you're "argument" reminds me of what C++ advocates keep going on about. Templates are turing complete, etc, you just need know how to use them. But even if competent CSS experts can make most things work, that doesn't mean they wouldn't be much more productive using something better suited to layout.

pj 18y ago
* that doesn't mean they wouldn't be much more productive using something better suited to layout* What would you suggest is better suited to layouts than CSS?
- fauigerzigerk 18y ago
  I agree with Ron Garret that tables are a better fit in most cases, even though they do have their own drawbacks that I'm not denying. I don't buy the argument that tables somehow imply semantics that contradict their use in layouting. Tables have no semantics without a formal system that lends them semantics (like the relational model). I'm not aware that the W3C or anyone else defined the formal meaning of tables, and since HTML is a UI technology I don't see why "table" should not be interpreted as a form of laying out content in rows and columns.
  - tripngroove 18y ago
    "Tables should not be used purely as a means to layout document content as this may present problems when rendering to non-visual media. Additionally, when used with graphics, these tables may force users to scroll horizontally to view a table designed on a system with a larger display. To minimize these problems, authors should use style sheets to control layout rather than tables." http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/tables.html#h-11.2.1 http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/tables.html#h-11.2.1

eli 18y ago

...flat-out don't know how to write CSS very well... Sounds a bit like an ad hominem attack to me

sam_in_nyc 18y ago

Can I hire you?