4 ms·

Good that Python supports types then

by baq 10mo ago

lelanthran 10mo ago
> Good that Python supports types then "Optional typing" is not the same as "Static typing". Great, my program will crash, because I forgot to opt-in to typing :-/
- paulddraper 10mo ago
  C has void pointers.
  - lelanthran 10mo ago
    > C has void pointers. And? Void pointers are not the default type :-/ With Python I have to do extra work to get type errors. With C I have to do extra work to hide the type errors. I am battling to understand the point you are making.
    - baq 10mo ago
      Hard to argue with an argument which isn’t internally coherent.
    - array_key_first 10mo ago
      He's probably conflating static and strong typing. C is statically typed, but weakly typed - you need to throw away types to do a bunch of run of the mill things. Python is dynamically typed, but strongly typed, where it will just fail if typed don't resolve. C# and C++ are both statically typed and strongly typed, although C# more than C++ in practice.
    - paulddraper 10mo ago
      I believe that is in fact the exact return type of malloc. You have to do extra work to type it. I’m not aware of any other statically typed language that does that. Hopefully that helps you in your battle.
      - lelanthran 10mo ago
        > I believe that is in fact the exact return type of malloc. > You have to do extra work to type it. Nope. Casting the return from `malloc` is a code-smell in C. You have to do extra work if you use `malloc` in C++. > Hopefully that helps you in your battle. Not sure what you mean by this - weren't you the one who dragged C into a conversation about Python?
SR2Z 10mo ago
Poorly, though, and with lots of edge cases and foot guns to make you miserable once your code calls out to numpy or gets some JSON.
Groxx 10mo ago
Python has formalized magic comments. You can run a third party linter on those comments, but you must hope that they're correct. There are usually some checks for that, but they're only reliable in trivial cases. This is not static typing any more than "you can use emscripten to transpile JavaScript to C" means that JavaScript is a low level language with native assembly support. It's a huge step forward from "no system at all" and I'm thrilled it exists, but it's hardly the same thing.
- kccqzy 10mo ago
  They are originally magic comments, unformalized. The feature is originally known as annotations and you can basically put anything there. def f(a: "something like an int", b: "another int-like thing"): pass def g(a: sys.stdin, b: sys.stderr): pass
tasuki 10mo ago
Tell me more please: how does one use types in Python? Unfortunately I write Python professionally these days (it is the language that has all the libraries) and hate it with a passion.
- baq 10mo ago
  mypy is the simplest/oldest option, look into pyright and ty, too. install uv and then uvx mypy should do the rest.
- seg_lol 10mo ago
  You will never get good if you continue to hate it. You don't have to like it, but hating it creates a mental block.
andrewl-hn 10mo ago
It's actually remarkable how with the success of TypeScript so many other dynamic languages switched to gradual typing. Erlang and Clojure were the early ones, TypeScript followed, and now Python, Ruby, and even Perl have ways to specify types and type check your programs.

Good that Python supports types then

by baq 10mo ago

Good that Python supports types then

> Good that Python supports types then "Optional typing" is not the same as "Static typing". Great, my program will crash, because I forgot to opt-in to typing :-/

paulddraper 10mo ago
C has void pointers.
- lelanthran 10mo ago
  > C has void pointers. And? Void pointers are not the default type :-/ With Python I have to do extra work to get type errors. With C I have to do extra work to hide the type errors. I am battling to understand the point you are making.
  - baq 10mo ago
    Hard to argue with an argument which isn’t internally coherent.
  - array_key_first 10mo ago
    He's probably conflating static and strong typing. C is statically typed, but weakly typed - you need to throw away types to do a bunch of run of the mill things. Python is dynamically typed, but strongly typed, where it will just fail if typed don't resolve. C# and C++ are both statically typed and strongly typed, although C# more than C++ in practice.
  - paulddraper 10mo ago
    I believe that is in fact the exact return type of malloc. You have to do extra work to type it. I’m not aware of any other statically typed language that does that. Hopefully that helps you in your battle.
    - lelanthran 10mo ago
      > I believe that is in fact the exact return type of malloc. > You have to do extra work to type it. Nope. Casting the return from `malloc` is a code-smell in C. You have to do extra work if you use `malloc` in C++. > Hopefully that helps you in your battle. Not sure what you mean by this - weren't you the one who dragged C into a conversation about Python?

SR2Z 10mo ago

Poorly, though, and with lots of edge cases and foot guns to make you miserable once your code calls out to numpy or gets some JSON.

Groxx 10mo ago

Python has formalized magic comments. You can run a third party linter on those comments, but you must hope that they're correct. There are usually some checks for that, but they're only reliable in trivial cases. This is not static typing any more than "you can use emscripten to transpile JavaScript to C" means that JavaScript is a low level language with native assembly support. It's a huge step forward from "no system at all" and I'm thrilled it exists, but it's hardly the same thing.

kccqzy 10mo ago
They are originally magic comments, unformalized. The feature is originally known as annotations and you can basically put anything there. def f(a: "something like an int", b: "another int-like thing"): pass def g(a: sys.stdin, b: sys.stderr): pass

tasuki 10mo ago

Tell me more please: how does one use types in Python? Unfortunately I write Python professionally these days (it is the language that has all the libraries) and hate it with a passion.

baq 10mo ago
mypy is the simplest/oldest option, look into pyright and ty, too. install uv and then uvx mypy should do the rest.
seg_lol 10mo ago
You will never get good if you continue to hate it. You don't have to like it, but hating it creates a mental block.

andrewl-hn 10mo ago

It's actually remarkable how with the success of TypeScript so many other dynamic languages switched to gradual typing. Erlang and Clojure were the early ones, TypeScript followed, and now Python, Ruby, and even Perl have ways to specify types and type check your programs.