5 ms·

The source is now readable but it’s not open source at all.

by msk-lywenn 10mo ago

bromuro 10mo ago
It is open source but not free software.
- cgfjtynzdrfht 9mo ago
  It's "source available" [1], not open source [2]. Words have meaning and all that. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source-available_software https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source-available_software 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_source
  - geokon 9mo ago
    cant blame him. We're in a bit of a bananas situation where open source isnt the antonym of closed source
    - jefftk 9mo ago
      This isn't that uncommon: * If a country doesn't have "closed borders" then many foreigners can visit if they follow certain rules around visas, purpose, and length of stay. If instead anyone can enter and live there with minimal restrictions we say it has "open borders". * If a journal isn't "closed access" it is free to read. If you additionally have permissions to redistribute, reuse, etc then it's "open access". * If an organization doesn't practice "closed meetings" then outsiders can attend meetings to observe. If it additionally provides advance notice, allows public attendance without permission, and records or publishes minutes, then it has “open meetings.” * A club that doesn't have "closed membership" is open to admitting members. Anyone can join provided they meet relevant criteria (if any) then it's "open membership". EDIT: expanded this into a post: https://www.jefftk.com/p/open-source-is-a-normal-term https://www.jefftk.com/p/open-source-is-a-normal-term
      - denotational 9mo ago
        * A set that isn't open isn't (necessarily) closed. * A set that is open can also be closed.
    - jibal 9mo ago
      Who says it isn't? "closed source" doesn't have a formal definition, but can be arbitrarily defined as the antonym of open source, and when people use the term that's usually what they mean. And that has nothing to do with whether someone can be "blamed" for ignoring the actual meaning of a term with a formal definition.
      - phendrenad2 9mo ago
        [flagged]
        jibal 9mo ago
        [flagged]
        phendrenad2 9mo ago
        [flagged]
        jibal 9mo ago
        [flagged]
        phendrenad2 9mo ago
        [flagged]
        jibal 9mo ago
        [flagged]
        phendrenad2 9mo ago
        [flagged]
  - nothrabannosir 9mo ago
    > Words have meaning and all that. Ironic put down when “open source” consists of two words which have meaning, but somehow doesn’t mean that when combined into one phrase. Same with free software, in a way. Programmers really are terrible at naming things. :)
    - thayne 9mo ago
      Even without a specific definition for "open source", I wouldn't consider source code with a restrictive license that doesn't allow you to do much with it to be "open".
    - jibal 9mo ago
      What exactly does "open" mean when used as a qualifier for "source"? The fact is that your claim "“open source” consists of two words which have meaning, but somehow doesn’t mean ==>that<== when combined into one phrase" is simply false, as there is no "that". > Same with free software, in a way. This is a much more supportable argument, but note the change in wording: "free software" is not the same as "free source". The latter suggests that one doesn't have to pay for the source, but says nothing about what one can do with the source or one's rights to software built from that source. As for "free [as in freedom] software", I think there would have been less contention if RMS/FSF had called it "freed software" or "liberated software", and it would have been more consistent with their stated goals. > Programmers really are terrible at naming things. This is silly sophism based on one anecdote that you didn't even get right. Naming things well is hard, and names in software have conditions that don't exist in more casual circumstances. The reality is that good programmers put a lot of effort into choosing names and generally are better at it than the population at large.
      - nothrabannosir 9mo ago
        You're close: they should have called it "freedom software". Which they wanted to, but couldn't, because it was trademarked. Source: I e-mailed richard stallman to ask why they didn't, he replied. You're welcome to think what you want, but I've had to explain to enough juniors enough times what "open" actually means, so I know what people without any preconceived notions think it means, vs what experts on HN associate with the word after decades in the industry. People who are new to the profession entirely, think that "open" means "you can look inside." Source: my life, unfortunately. > ... that you didn't even get right. FYI: this style of conversation won't get anyone to listen to you. And FWIW I was referencing the quip which I'm sure your familiar with. It was tongue in cheek. > The reality is that good programmers put a lot of effort into choosing names and generally are better at it than the population at large. ... isn't that a No True Scotsman?
- chongli 9mo ago
  No, it’s source available but not open source. Open source requires at minimum the license to distribute modified copies. Popular open source licenses such as MIT [1] take this further: The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be included in all copies or substantial portions of the Software. This makes the license transitive so that derived works are also MIT licensed. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIT_License?wprov=sfti1#License_terms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIT_License?wprov=sfti1#Licens...
  - aeon_ai 9mo ago
    MIT is not copyleft. The copyright notice must be included for those incorporated elements, but other downstream code it remains part of can be licensed however it wants. AGPL and GPL are, on the other hand, as you describe.
    - chongli 9mo ago
      Modifications can be licensed differently but that takes extra work. If I release a project with the MIT license at the top of each file and you download my project and make a 1-line change which you then redistribute, you need to explicitly mark that line as having a different license from the rest of the file otherwise it could be interpreted as also being MIT licensed. You also could not legally remove the MIT license from those files and distribute with all rights reserved. My original granting of permission to modify and redistribute continues downstream.
  - sigseg1v 9mo ago
    Not quite. You need to include the MIT license text when distributing the software*, but the software you build doesn't need to also be MIT. *: which unfortunately most users of MIT libraries do not follow as I often have an extremely difficult time finding the OSS licenses in their software distributions
  - phendrenad2 9mo ago
    No, the original definition of open-source is source code that is visible (open) to the public.
- Xerox9213 9mo ago
  It’s is “source available” but not open source.
- ptx 9mo ago
  Open Source is the same thing as Free Software, just with the different name. The term "Open Source" was coined later to emphasize the business benefits instead of the rights and freedom of the users, but the four freedoms of the Free Software Definition [1] and the ten criteria of the Open Source Definition [2] describe essentially the same thing. [1] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html [2] https://opensource.org/osd https://opensource.org/osd

The source is now readable but it’s not open source at all.

bromuro 10mo ago

It is open source but not free software.

cgfjtynzdrfht 9mo ago
It's "source available" [1], not open source [2]. Words have meaning and all that. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source-available_software https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source-available_software 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_source
- geokon 9mo ago
  cant blame him. We're in a bit of a bananas situation where open source isnt the antonym of closed source
  - jefftk 9mo ago
    This isn't that uncommon: * If a country doesn't have "closed borders" then many foreigners can visit if they follow certain rules around visas, purpose, and length of stay. If instead anyone can enter and live there with minimal restrictions we say it has "open borders". * If a journal isn't "closed access" it is free to read. If you additionally have permissions to redistribute, reuse, etc then it's "open access". * If an organization doesn't practice "closed meetings" then outsiders can attend meetings to observe. If it additionally provides advance notice, allows public attendance without permission, and records or publishes minutes, then it has “open meetings.” * A club that doesn't have "closed membership" is open to admitting members. Anyone can join provided they meet relevant criteria (if any) then it's "open membership". EDIT: expanded this into a post: https://www.jefftk.com/p/open-source-is-a-normal-term https://www.jefftk.com/p/open-source-is-a-normal-term
    - denotational 9mo ago
      * A set that isn't open isn't (necessarily) closed. * A set that is open can also be closed.
  - jibal 9mo ago
    Who says it isn't? "closed source" doesn't have a formal definition, but can be arbitrarily defined as the antonym of open source, and when people use the term that's usually what they mean. And that has nothing to do with whether someone can be "blamed" for ignoring the actual meaning of a term with a formal definition.
    - phendrenad2 9mo ago
      [flagged]
      - jibal 9mo ago
        [flagged]
        phendrenad2 9mo ago
        [flagged]
        jibal 9mo ago
        [flagged]
        phendrenad2 9mo ago
        [flagged]
        jibal 9mo ago
        [flagged]
        phendrenad2 9mo ago
        [flagged]
- nothrabannosir 9mo ago
  > Words have meaning and all that. Ironic put down when “open source” consists of two words which have meaning, but somehow doesn’t mean that when combined into one phrase. Same with free software, in a way. Programmers really are terrible at naming things. :)
  - thayne 9mo ago
    Even without a specific definition for "open source", I wouldn't consider source code with a restrictive license that doesn't allow you to do much with it to be "open".
  - jibal 9mo ago
    What exactly does "open" mean when used as a qualifier for "source"? The fact is that your claim "“open source” consists of two words which have meaning, but somehow doesn’t mean ==>that<== when combined into one phrase" is simply false, as there is no "that". > Same with free software, in a way. This is a much more supportable argument, but note the change in wording: "free software" is not the same as "free source". The latter suggests that one doesn't have to pay for the source, but says nothing about what one can do with the source or one's rights to software built from that source. As for "free [as in freedom] software", I think there would have been less contention if RMS/FSF had called it "freed software" or "liberated software", and it would have been more consistent with their stated goals. > Programmers really are terrible at naming things. This is silly sophism based on one anecdote that you didn't even get right. Naming things well is hard, and names in software have conditions that don't exist in more casual circumstances. The reality is that good programmers put a lot of effort into choosing names and generally are better at it than the population at large.
    - nothrabannosir 9mo ago
      You're close: they should have called it "freedom software". Which they wanted to, but couldn't, because it was trademarked. Source: I e-mailed richard stallman to ask why they didn't, he replied. You're welcome to think what you want, but I've had to explain to enough juniors enough times what "open" actually means, so I know what people without any preconceived notions think it means, vs what experts on HN associate with the word after decades in the industry. People who are new to the profession entirely, think that "open" means "you can look inside." Source: my life, unfortunately. > ... that you didn't even get right. FYI: this style of conversation won't get anyone to listen to you. And FWIW I was referencing the quip which I'm sure your familiar with. It was tongue in cheek. > The reality is that good programmers put a lot of effort into choosing names and generally are better at it than the population at large. ... isn't that a No True Scotsman?
chongli 9mo ago
No, it’s source available but not open source. Open source requires at minimum the license to distribute modified copies. Popular open source licenses such as MIT [1] take this further: The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be included in all copies or substantial portions of the Software. This makes the license transitive so that derived works are also MIT licensed. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIT_License?wprov=sfti1#License_terms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIT_License?wprov=sfti1#Licens...
- aeon_ai 9mo ago
  MIT is not copyleft. The copyright notice must be included for those incorporated elements, but other downstream code it remains part of can be licensed however it wants. AGPL and GPL are, on the other hand, as you describe.
  - chongli 9mo ago
    Modifications can be licensed differently but that takes extra work. If I release a project with the MIT license at the top of each file and you download my project and make a 1-line change which you then redistribute, you need to explicitly mark that line as having a different license from the rest of the file otherwise it could be interpreted as also being MIT licensed. You also could not legally remove the MIT license from those files and distribute with all rights reserved. My original granting of permission to modify and redistribute continues downstream.
- sigseg1v 9mo ago
  Not quite. You need to include the MIT license text when distributing the software*, but the software you build doesn't need to also be MIT. *: which unfortunately most users of MIT libraries do not follow as I often have an extremely difficult time finding the OSS licenses in their software distributions
- phendrenad2 9mo ago
  No, the original definition of open-source is source code that is visible (open) to the public.
Xerox9213 9mo ago
It’s is “source available” but not open source.
ptx 9mo ago
Open Source is the same thing as Free Software, just with the different name. The term "Open Source" was coined later to emphasize the business benefits instead of the rights and freedom of the users, but the four freedoms of the Free Software Definition [1] and the ten criteria of the Open Source Definition [2] describe essentially the same thing. [1] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html [2] https://opensource.org/osd https://opensource.org/osd