4 ms·

If you're curious about Wirth languages (Oberon is an example), then Ada is the one to explore. Standardized. Very mature. Proven track record. https://en.wiki

If you're curious about Wirth languages (Oberon is an example), then Ada is the one to explore. Standardized. Very mature. Proven track record. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ada_(programming_language) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ada_(programming_language)

mikethe 11mo ago
..thank you.. I am very curious at the moment about why my post shows up a lighter shade of gray than others. I have done some searching, and apparently this can have something to do with people down-voting something, maybe if it seems to contain disparaging comments. I described oberon as "dusty", could that be it? It wasn't meant to be disparaging. You see rust all over the place. If I hadn't been exploring the text editor vis referred to by suckless, I wouldn't have even known oberon existed. I am -not- trying to criticize oberon. I am not trying to claim that rust is better. I am just looking for a comparison of the two, from the point of view of the particular poster I referenced. I would have responded to his comment directly if I could. Thank you very much for your tip about ada. I'll check it out!
- andsoitis 11mo ago
  If you DO want to try out Oberon, here are some starting points: - https://github.com/rochus-keller/Oberon https://github.com/rochus-keller/Oberon - https://free.oberon.org/en/ https://free.oberon.org/en/ (discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38240333 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38240333)
  - mikethe 11mo ago
    Thanks!
- fuzzfactor 11mo ago
  The submission text is always grey. Your comments will not appear grey unless downvoted more so than upvoted, and that grey will be seen by others but not be seen by you while you are still logged in. Your account name is new and so appears in green which some users will scrutinize until they are confident it is not a bad actor.
  - mikethe 11mo ago
    Super helpful! Thank you!
Jtsummers 11mo ago
Ada is Wirthian, but not a Wirth language. It's worth making the distinction because while its syntax and many of its semantics can be seen as coming from Algol and Wirth's line of languages in particular, he did not design it himself.
- Rochus 11mo ago
  Ada is not even "Wirthian". There are similarities with Pascal syntax, but the philosophy is completely different (see my other comment).
Rochus 11mo ago
Ada is superficially related with Pascal syntax, but definitely not a Wirth language (whether directly nor in spirit).
- andsoitis 11mo ago
  You're right that Wirth neither designed Ada nor is Ada in the direct Wirth line (Algol -> Pascal -> Modula 2 -> Oberon), but I think of Ada is very much a parallel branch (Algol -> Ada) and Wirth-influenced, but I would defer to your expertise. Maybe the biggest difference between Ada and true Wirth languages is that it is not deliberately minimal. Would you say that Ada sits close to Modula 2 philosophically, but industrial-scale?
  - Rochus 11mo ago
    Ada and Wirth’s languages (including Modula-2) represent fundamentally opposing schools of thought regarding language design, despite their shared ALGOL-60 heritage and partly related syntax. Ada is in every aspect a much bigger and more powerful (e.g. concerning the ability of the compiler to assist you in writing safe low-level code) language than any of the Wirth languages. Wirth famously criticized Ada as being "uneconomical"; he believed that because Ada’s requirements were so "baroque" and contradictory, the resulting language was inevitably overloaded with features whose marginal benefits did not justify their complexity (https://archive.org/details/Computer_Language_Issue_09_1985-05_CL_Publications_US https://archive.org/details/Computer_Language_Issue_09_1985-...). But when you e.g. study the Oberon system, you see that it depended on "tricks" (e.g. SYSTEM.PUT/GET, VAR ARRAY of SYSTEM.BYTE) which were not properly integrated in the language concepts and had to be used without any typechecking support by the compiler.
    - andsoitis 11mo ago
      I see. Thanks for your explanation.
      - Rochus 11mo ago
        > Would you say that Ada sits close to Modula 2 philosophically In the Rationale for the Design of the Ada Programming Language (published as SIGPLAN Notices, June 1979), the design team explicitly lists their influences. Mesa (a language developed at Xerox PARC, where Wirth made his sabbaticals) is cited as a source for the module/package concept. Modula (referring to Modula-1, 1977) is cited in the context of concurrency and low-level hardware access (e.g., handling interrupts, device drivers), and for the general concept of the module as a syntactic unit. From the timeline we can assume that Modula-2 had not arrived at the design team when they released their proposal to the DoD. Notably, Wirth had actually submitted his own proposal to the DoD (the "Yellow" language, via SRI in 1977), though he withdrew it early because he felt the requirements were too complex. Unfortunately, no public specification of the "Yellow" language exists, but it was very likely not Modula-2.

mikethe 11mo ago

..thank you.. I am very curious at the moment about why my post shows up a lighter shade of gray than others. I have done some searching, and apparently this can have something to do with people down-voting something, maybe if it seems to contain disparaging comments. I described oberon as "dusty", could that be it? It wasn't meant to be disparaging. You see rust all over the place. If I hadn't been exploring the text editor vis referred to by suckless, I wouldn't have even known oberon existed. I am -not- trying to criticize oberon. I am not trying to claim that rust is better. I am just looking for a comparison of the two, from the point of view of the particular poster I referenced. I would have responded to his comment directly if I could. Thank you very much for your tip about ada. I'll check it out!

andsoitis 11mo ago
If you DO want to try out Oberon, here are some starting points: - https://github.com/rochus-keller/Oberon https://github.com/rochus-keller/Oberon - https://free.oberon.org/en/ https://free.oberon.org/en/ (discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38240333 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38240333)
- mikethe 11mo ago
  Thanks!
fuzzfactor 11mo ago
The submission text is always grey. Your comments will not appear grey unless downvoted more so than upvoted, and that grey will be seen by others but not be seen by you while you are still logged in. Your account name is new and so appears in green which some users will scrutinize until they are confident it is not a bad actor.
- mikethe 11mo ago
  Super helpful! Thank you!

Jtsummers 11mo ago

Ada is Wirthian, but not a Wirth language. It's worth making the distinction because while its syntax and many of its semantics can be seen as coming from Algol and Wirth's line of languages in particular, he did not design it himself.

Rochus 11mo ago
Ada is not even "Wirthian". There are similarities with Pascal syntax, but the philosophy is completely different (see my other comment).

Rochus 11mo ago

Ada is superficially related with Pascal syntax, but definitely not a Wirth language (whether directly nor in spirit).

andsoitis 11mo ago
You're right that Wirth neither designed Ada nor is Ada in the direct Wirth line (Algol -> Pascal -> Modula 2 -> Oberon), but I think of Ada is very much a parallel branch (Algol -> Ada) and Wirth-influenced, but I would defer to your expertise. Maybe the biggest difference between Ada and true Wirth languages is that it is not deliberately minimal. Would you say that Ada sits close to Modula 2 philosophically, but industrial-scale?
- Rochus 11mo ago
  Ada and Wirth’s languages (including Modula-2) represent fundamentally opposing schools of thought regarding language design, despite their shared ALGOL-60 heritage and partly related syntax. Ada is in every aspect a much bigger and more powerful (e.g. concerning the ability of the compiler to assist you in writing safe low-level code) language than any of the Wirth languages. Wirth famously criticized Ada as being "uneconomical"; he believed that because Ada’s requirements were so "baroque" and contradictory, the resulting language was inevitably overloaded with features whose marginal benefits did not justify their complexity (https://archive.org/details/Computer_Language_Issue_09_1985-05_CL_Publications_US https://archive.org/details/Computer_Language_Issue_09_1985-...). But when you e.g. study the Oberon system, you see that it depended on "tricks" (e.g. SYSTEM.PUT/GET, VAR ARRAY of SYSTEM.BYTE) which were not properly integrated in the language concepts and had to be used without any typechecking support by the compiler.
  - andsoitis 11mo ago
    I see. Thanks for your explanation.
    - Rochus 11mo ago
      > Would you say that Ada sits close to Modula 2 philosophically In the Rationale for the Design of the Ada Programming Language (published as SIGPLAN Notices, June 1979), the design team explicitly lists their influences. Mesa (a language developed at Xerox PARC, where Wirth made his sabbaticals) is cited as a source for the module/package concept. Modula (referring to Modula-1, 1977) is cited in the context of concurrency and low-level hardware access (e.g., handling interrupts, device drivers), and for the general concept of the module as a syntactic unit. From the timeline we can assume that Modula-2 had not arrived at the design team when they released their proposal to the DoD. Notably, Wirth had actually submitted his own proposal to the DoD (the "Yellow" language, via SRI in 1977), though he withdrew it early because he felt the requirements were too complex. Unfortunately, no public specification of the "Yellow" language exists, but it was very likely not Modula-2.