5 ms·

I've expressed my personal opinions about NaCl here on HN before too: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2057611 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2057611

haberman 14y ago
For what it's worth, I think the comment you linked is far more fair and balanced criticism. If all of the statements I was hearing from Mozilla people sounded like that, I would have no beef.
- BrendanEich 14y ago
  Maciej and I agree, but you are holding Mozilla to a different standard from Apple. Another reason I'm striving to ignore you (for both our sakes).
- othermaciej 14y ago
  I have a different writing style from Brendan, but I don't think there is any significant substantive difference between what he said in this thread and what I said almost 2 years ago. (Although, the fact that PNaCl is still an experiment and not the mainstream of NaCl nearly two years after I wrote my comment should be further cause for concern.)
  - haberman 14y ago
    The significant substantive differences, to me as a reader, are: - You don't make final-sounding judgments like "never" or "non-starter" that preemptively reject any future evolution of the technology. - Your criticisms are highly pragmatic and specific, such that it is clear what hurdles the technology would have to clear to address them, and you don't close the door to the idea that they could (even if it seems unlikely to you). - You don't fall back on ideological arguments like native code as a "social ill" that would suggest that your true objections run deeper than what any technical improvements could possibly address. Thank you for that.
    - BrendanEich 14y ago
      The purpose of my "final-sounding judgments" is to cut the crap in the short term that keeps getting dumped on Mozilla by you and others with an enlarged sense of entitlement, and an unjustified assumption that NaCl/PNaCl + Pepper is somehow "better" in the large, and so should get free support from non-Chrome browsers. If you think overcoming some hurdles enumerated by Maciej will get PNaCL and Pepper support into Safari (where, BTW, Pepper is closest to porting cleanly by any measure, e.g., patch size), you're dreaming. Remember, I did not coin the funny "Active G" phrase. That shoe was fit by the guy you're trying to suck up to here. If an indefinite-future-tense, and therefore worthless, promise from me to be open to portable SuperPNaCl in 2020, will get you to stop bashing Mozilla and flattering Apple, then here it is. Indeed my plan is for JS to evolve and mutate to be that portable object format for native code to compile to. Emscripten is a promising sign along this path. And the PNaCl folks are targeting JS too, I hear, so this looks like a common goal. Now can you stop defaming Mozilla? /be
      - askimto 14y ago
        Now can you start ignoring haberman like you said you would? Your belligerent comments are getting a bit old at this point. You hate NaCl. We get it. Criticizing a slide makes you upset. OK. Understood.
        BrendanEich 14y ago
        I always reply when I have something worth saying. "Hate" is the wrong word. There's nothing to hate in a well-done SFI-enforcing compiler. I admire the R&D effort. We -- bad old Mozilla, including evil-me -- are seriously considering using NaCl (not Pepper) for SFI in native code parts of Servo. No "hate" here, so do try to grow up: "You hate NaCl" is just weak, beneath you, as an analysis of motives and causes. Let's step away from NaCl as pure tech for safer compilation of unsafe languages. I do call Google's business strategy pushing NaCl+Pepper via games and even (till it all fell apart last November) Flash heavy-handed, and one-sided to such an extent that what's pushed can never be standardized. What's belligerent here is for someone (haberman), who I hear works for Google, a company that has all the money and power in the world, and which makes actual "pro-NaCl propaganda" as well as pays game developers and others to use the Chrome-only tech (NaCl, not PNaCl, note well), to fire first on this thread. It wasn't me who showed "belligerence". That first shot even tried open-washing, lamely, and it tellingly put Mozilla in the subordinate position. ''I could understand "we want to be more involved in the process."'' If you don't work for Google or hold a brief for them, ask yourself why haberman's presumption is that Mozilla, or any other browser maker, should be asking or begging to be included in a process that we were excluded from and practically speaking could never participate in without equal big bucks and market power. The great thing about the Web is that no one owns it. Browser vendors, tool makers, and developers (whom the first two groups avidly court) have to reach consensus via standards. And I find that developers, not just pure web devs, definitely including @kripken (Emscripten's creator), @jashkenas (CoffeeScript), and others, are more creative and faster moving than many highly-paid C++-first hackers, including those perpetrating single-vendor follies such as NaCl+Pepper. Whine at me, cry "hate" and "belligerence" while turning a blind eye to the big gun who fired first, and shoot the messenger. It doesn't matter. NaCl+Pepper have already lost to JS for portable cross-browser high-performance native code compilation.

haberman 14y ago

For what it's worth, I think the comment you linked is far more fair and balanced criticism. If all of the statements I was hearing from Mozilla people sounded like that, I would have no beef.

BrendanEich 14y ago
Maciej and I agree, but you are holding Mozilla to a different standard from Apple. Another reason I'm striving to ignore you (for both our sakes).
othermaciej 14y ago
I have a different writing style from Brendan, but I don't think there is any significant substantive difference between what he said in this thread and what I said almost 2 years ago. (Although, the fact that PNaCl is still an experiment and not the mainstream of NaCl nearly two years after I wrote my comment should be further cause for concern.)
- haberman 14y ago
  The significant substantive differences, to me as a reader, are: - You don't make final-sounding judgments like "never" or "non-starter" that preemptively reject any future evolution of the technology. - Your criticisms are highly pragmatic and specific, such that it is clear what hurdles the technology would have to clear to address them, and you don't close the door to the idea that they could (even if it seems unlikely to you). - You don't fall back on ideological arguments like native code as a "social ill" that would suggest that your true objections run deeper than what any technical improvements could possibly address. Thank you for that.
  - BrendanEich 14y ago
    The purpose of my "final-sounding judgments" is to cut the crap in the short term that keeps getting dumped on Mozilla by you and others with an enlarged sense of entitlement, and an unjustified assumption that NaCl/PNaCl + Pepper is somehow "better" in the large, and so should get free support from non-Chrome browsers. If you think overcoming some hurdles enumerated by Maciej will get PNaCL and Pepper support into Safari (where, BTW, Pepper is closest to porting cleanly by any measure, e.g., patch size), you're dreaming. Remember, I did not coin the funny "Active G" phrase. That shoe was fit by the guy you're trying to suck up to here. If an indefinite-future-tense, and therefore worthless, promise from me to be open to portable SuperPNaCl in 2020, will get you to stop bashing Mozilla and flattering Apple, then here it is. Indeed my plan is for JS to evolve and mutate to be that portable object format for native code to compile to. Emscripten is a promising sign along this path. And the PNaCl folks are targeting JS too, I hear, so this looks like a common goal. Now can you stop defaming Mozilla? /be
    - askimto 14y ago
      Now can you start ignoring haberman like you said you would? Your belligerent comments are getting a bit old at this point. You hate NaCl. We get it. Criticizing a slide makes you upset. OK. Understood.
      - BrendanEich 14y ago
        I always reply when I have something worth saying. "Hate" is the wrong word. There's nothing to hate in a well-done SFI-enforcing compiler. I admire the R&D effort. We -- bad old Mozilla, including evil-me -- are seriously considering using NaCl (not Pepper) for SFI in native code parts of Servo. No "hate" here, so do try to grow up: "You hate NaCl" is just weak, beneath you, as an analysis of motives and causes. Let's step away from NaCl as pure tech for safer compilation of unsafe languages. I do call Google's business strategy pushing NaCl+Pepper via games and even (till it all fell apart last November) Flash heavy-handed, and one-sided to such an extent that what's pushed can never be standardized. What's belligerent here is for someone (haberman), who I hear works for Google, a company that has all the money and power in the world, and which makes actual "pro-NaCl propaganda" as well as pays game developers and others to use the Chrome-only tech (NaCl, not PNaCl, note well), to fire first on this thread. It wasn't me who showed "belligerence". That first shot even tried open-washing, lamely, and it tellingly put Mozilla in the subordinate position. ''I could understand "we want to be more involved in the process."'' If you don't work for Google or hold a brief for them, ask yourself why haberman's presumption is that Mozilla, or any other browser maker, should be asking or begging to be included in a process that we were excluded from and practically speaking could never participate in without equal big bucks and market power. The great thing about the Web is that no one owns it. Browser vendors, tool makers, and developers (whom the first two groups avidly court) have to reach consensus via standards. And I find that developers, not just pure web devs, definitely including @kripken (Emscripten's creator), @jashkenas (CoffeeScript), and others, are more creative and faster moving than many highly-paid C++-first hackers, including those perpetrating single-vendor follies such as NaCl+Pepper. Whine at me, cry "hate" and "belligerence" while turning a blind eye to the big gun who fired first, and shoot the messenger. It doesn't matter. NaCl+Pepper have already lost to JS for portable cross-browser high-performance native code compilation.