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Germany Shifts to Nuclear Fusion After Fukushima-Era Fission Policy

4 points by mpweiher 10mo ago

palata 10mo ago
It wasn't clear to the people (at least to me) that moving away from nuclear energy was a bad idea, but nowadays I think it should be. And to be fair, back then Germany should have listened to experts because they already knew. Now betting on fusion sounds like Germany doesn't want to acknowledge that it was a mistake. "We were right, we're just moving to fusion right away". Except that fusion is nowhere ready. And nuclear fission is not as big a problem as people thought.
- damnitbuilds 10mo ago
  Clever people knew it was a stupid move but, as with Brexit, all the people were allowed to decide a complex issue and made the wrong choice. Governments should by now have learnt not to do that. I agree that fission is (still) the way to go, with fusion worth researching but still too unsure to rely on. A good article would have noted that view.
- ZeroGravitas 10mo ago
  In hindsight switching to renewables from nuclear was a great idea. It's also obvious in hindsight that politicians on the right have been sabotaging it all along, and despite that it still worked out okay and probably helped save the world. Imagine the whole government was consistently behind wind, solar, EV, batteries, heat pumps etc. manufacturing and deployment, they'd be more resilient to Russia and better placed to compete with China. It's notable that the more a German political party supports nuclear, the less they support EVs and heat pumps. Which suggests it's a disingenuous distraction for them.
  - palata 10mo ago
    > In hindsight switching to renewables from nuclear was a great idea. I'm genuinely confused.
    - ZeroGravitas 10mo ago
      It's not clear if you aren't familiar with the political history or if you just disagree that it's a good idea. Historical context: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energiewende https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energiewende As to whether it was good idea, a quote from that article: > The coalition government introduced an intermediate target of a 55–60% share of renewable energy in gross electricity consumption in 2035. The targets were described as "ambitious" In 2025 they'll be around 56% (and as I said, this is with clear sandbagging by people who are politically opposed to this transition). And them blazing this trail enabled other nations like Hungary to go from zero to 30% solar in a decade.
      - palata 10mo ago
        > or if you just disagree that it's a good idea I disagree that it's a good idea. They heavily rely on fossil fuels, and when they don't, they heavily rely on France's nuclear energy. Renewable is great when there is wind and sun, not so much otherwise. It's the kind of situation where "but we're 50% there!" does not matter if the last 50% is impossible. And hoping for nuclear fusion proves that renewables don't solve the problem on their own. Nuclear fission is not bad, those who are afraid of it are just uninformed.
        ben_w 10mo ago
        > And hoping for nuclear fusion proves that renewables don't solve the problem on their own. It's weaker than that, it says that renewables don't currently look like they solve the problem at a national level on their own. The "currently" is subject to tech improvements, the "look like" is subject to politicians having the same range of beliefs as the rest of us and not being magically blessed with true knowledge, the "national level" part is e.g. "yes the PV and batteries are both cheap enough and available in large enough quantities to do it all, but we don't like the country selling them". Fusion (and fission) can be a hedged bet; against the third caveat I listed, it doesn't even need to be fully deployed to be useful, as the investment is a costly signal to e.g. China that e.g. Germany will be able to respond quickly if China tries to cut off supply in order to secure Chinese interests.
sonuhia 10mo ago
Germans don't shift. The execute stages of precisely calculated, long-term plans which are need-to-know for multi-functional, cross-sector reasons across existing, predicted and emerging industries and cultural and sub-cultural developments. It took me a while to understand why it looked like it was the "left" and the green parties that fucked up a golden energy future, but now I understand. With the "more right" parties and style of governance, things will get better, which would not have happened if the former wasn't also true. Well played.
damnitbuilds 10mo ago
"While commercial fusion is still roughly a decade away" Gonna need more than a few citations for that, Ken.
- mpweiher 10mo ago
  https://news.mit.edu/2024/commonwealth-fusion-systems-unveils-worlds-first-fusion-power-plant-1217 https://news.mit.edu/2024/commonwealth-fusion-systems-unveil...

4 points by mpweiher 10mo ago

palata 10mo ago

It wasn't clear to the people (at least to me) that moving away from nuclear energy was a bad idea, but nowadays I think it should be. And to be fair, back then Germany should have listened to experts because they already knew. Now betting on fusion sounds like Germany doesn't want to acknowledge that it was a mistake. "We were right, we're just moving to fusion right away". Except that fusion is nowhere ready. And nuclear fission is not as big a problem as people thought.

damnitbuilds 10mo ago
Clever people knew it was a stupid move but, as with Brexit, all the people were allowed to decide a complex issue and made the wrong choice. Governments should by now have learnt not to do that. I agree that fission is (still) the way to go, with fusion worth researching but still too unsure to rely on. A good article would have noted that view.
ZeroGravitas 10mo ago
In hindsight switching to renewables from nuclear was a great idea. It's also obvious in hindsight that politicians on the right have been sabotaging it all along, and despite that it still worked out okay and probably helped save the world. Imagine the whole government was consistently behind wind, solar, EV, batteries, heat pumps etc. manufacturing and deployment, they'd be more resilient to Russia and better placed to compete with China. It's notable that the more a German political party supports nuclear, the less they support EVs and heat pumps. Which suggests it's a disingenuous distraction for them.
- palata 10mo ago
  > In hindsight switching to renewables from nuclear was a great idea. I'm genuinely confused.
  - ZeroGravitas 10mo ago
    It's not clear if you aren't familiar with the political history or if you just disagree that it's a good idea. Historical context: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energiewende https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energiewende As to whether it was good idea, a quote from that article: > The coalition government introduced an intermediate target of a 55–60% share of renewable energy in gross electricity consumption in 2035. The targets were described as "ambitious" In 2025 they'll be around 56% (and as I said, this is with clear sandbagging by people who are politically opposed to this transition). And them blazing this trail enabled other nations like Hungary to go from zero to 30% solar in a decade.
    - palata 10mo ago
      > or if you just disagree that it's a good idea I disagree that it's a good idea. They heavily rely on fossil fuels, and when they don't, they heavily rely on France's nuclear energy. Renewable is great when there is wind and sun, not so much otherwise. It's the kind of situation where "but we're 50% there!" does not matter if the last 50% is impossible. And hoping for nuclear fusion proves that renewables don't solve the problem on their own. Nuclear fission is not bad, those who are afraid of it are just uninformed.
      - ben_w 10mo ago
        > And hoping for nuclear fusion proves that renewables don't solve the problem on their own. It's weaker than that, it says that renewables don't currently look like they solve the problem at a national level on their own. The "currently" is subject to tech improvements, the "look like" is subject to politicians having the same range of beliefs as the rest of us and not being magically blessed with true knowledge, the "national level" part is e.g. "yes the PV and batteries are both cheap enough and available in large enough quantities to do it all, but we don't like the country selling them". Fusion (and fission) can be a hedged bet; against the third caveat I listed, it doesn't even need to be fully deployed to be useful, as the investment is a costly signal to e.g. China that e.g. Germany will be able to respond quickly if China tries to cut off supply in order to secure Chinese interests.

sonuhia 10mo ago

Germans don't shift. The execute stages of precisely calculated, long-term plans which are need-to-know for multi-functional, cross-sector reasons across existing, predicted and emerging industries and cultural and sub-cultural developments. It took me a while to understand why it looked like it was the "left" and the green parties that fucked up a golden energy future, but now I understand. With the "more right" parties and style of governance, things will get better, which would not have happened if the former wasn't also true. Well played.

damnitbuilds 10mo ago

"While commercial fusion is still roughly a decade away" Gonna need more than a few citations for that, Ken.

mpweiher 10mo ago
https://news.mit.edu/2024/commonwealth-fusion-systems-unveils-worlds-first-fusion-power-plant-1217 https://news.mit.edu/2024/commonwealth-fusion-systems-unveil...