6 ms·

The problem with "child abuse" is that some countries classify drawing things as "child abuse," or "rape," or "animal abuse." (Something I don't agree with.) I

• numlock86 10mo ago
  > this is honestly going to get much worse Just like with Brexit, the majority of UK's population voted (and will keep voting) for this.
• habinero 10mo ago
  I was curious and searched to find more context and ... uh, no offense but what on earth have you been doing that you've been tangling with the law over CSAM for at least four years?
  • Jigsy 10mo ago
    Watching anime, looking at anime artwork, reading manga since 2006. Why else would you criminally investigate artwork websites if your aim is not to arrest artists and those who look at their artwork? (And eventually use them as an excuse to show why encryption is evil, and how "evil artists" could be caught more easily if it was backdoored.) If you're looking for news, there won't be any yet as, as I said, I'm still under investigation.
    • left-struck 10mo ago
      I think it really depends on what kind of anime you’re talking about. Like if you’re watching one piece fan art and the British police raided you, absolutely ridiculous. If you’re looking at naked artistic depictions of minors then it’s clearly not just “anime artwork”. BTW I’m not saying that someone who looks at that should be treated the same way as someone who harms a child but I’m just saying the cultural acceptance in the uk between those two extremes is vast.
      • Jigsy 10mo ago
        They just said "illegal" artwork, they didn't stipulate. (So this could be incest, bestiality, loli, etc, etc.) Why would cultural acceptance matter? Classifying drawing something - regardless of what it is - as a "crime" is ridiculous. Like, for example, I don't like rape (or strangulation, something else they'll start arresting people for now since they recently made it a crime), but I don't want to see people jailed for drawing it, or jailed for looking at anime/drawings/manga/visual novels of/containing it. I'd rather see people who actually abuse, exploit or cause general suffering to another human being arrested and jailed.
      • jeffjeffbear 10mo ago
        > I think it really depends on what kind of anime you’re talking about Does it? If I draw a naked stick figure with boobs and say it is 14, is that morally wrong? At what point should a person care? Their point is that a drawing doesn't hurt people right?
        • AlecSchueler 10mo ago
          > If I draw a naked stick figure with boobs and say it is 14, is that morally wrong? At what point should a person care? No and I'm sure every judge in Britain would throw that case out. > Their point is that a drawing doesn't hurt people right? It can in certain circumstances encourage a market or normalise abusive behaviour.
          • 10mo ago
• bfkwlfkjf 10mo ago
  For clarification, you got raided despite using tor? You mention tor but dont say so directly so I'm not sure.
  • Jigsy 10mo ago
    I've don't use Tor. I've never had a reason to. All the artwork websites I access are publically accessible artwork websites.
    • latentsea 10mo ago
      Publically accessible doesn't necessarily mean legal.
      • Jigsy 10mo ago
        They're all long established websites. The oldest one I have an account on (and use to get posters) is 2007.
        • latentsea 10mo ago
          Also doesn't mean they're legal.
          • bfkwlfkjf 10mo ago
            Maybe no point beating up the guy. Maybe he's slightly naive.
• eastbound 10mo ago
  In addition to “drawing”, it’s also the loosely interpreted age that concerns me. Any drawing “deemed under 18” is just as criminalized as the actual crime. While there are many Instagram users who pretend to be above 18, many drawings of lewd acts, adding that the age is freely interpreted by judges… it’s a free field for general oppression.
  • delusional 10mo ago
    > While there are many Instagram users who pretend to be above 18 Do you support robust and mandatory age verification to enforce existing rules on social media websites, like Instagram?
    • eastbound 10mo ago
      What? What’s the relation between your question and being safe while consuming ok-content? I said “deemed”. The judge can decide anything even if the user really is above 18. Not even to ask how you enforce age verification of characters in a drawing?
• Telaneo 10mo ago
  I'd be curious what would happen if you pointed the relevant authorities at any decently sized store selling manga. There's got to be at least one stereotypical sexualised 4000 year old loli vampire or whatever in there. The sad truth is probably that they'd just shrug their arms and do nothing, since the surveillance and harassment is the point, and not even upholding the letter of the law, and much less its spirit.
  • csomar 10mo ago
    The people in the system have to do something to justify the existence of such a system and bump their metrics. Whether someone did something bad or not is irrelevant. It is the job of the prosecution lawyers to figure out the grounds. Legality and culpability is a paperwork. Of course, if someone is rich and powerful (ehm, epsty, ehm) then the whole system will look the other way around. At least until it's impossible to do so. Then such a person and his footprint will just disappear in the same big bureaucracy that is doing this.
    • spwa4 10mo ago
      Is that why the fact that getting essentially every LLM to produce sexualized stereotypes is trivially easy, yet getting zero attention from these guys? Or, much more long-running than the LLM "loophole": there's entire "channels" on Social Media, like Tiktok and Facebook Instagram Reels and Signal and Whatsapp and Telegram and ... that post essentially nothing but that, and no reaction. https://www.tiktok.com/@modelagencyai/video/7225020868131294491 https://www.tiktok.com/@modelagencyai/video/7225020868131294... But what I find most criminal about these systems is that they're all about catching. These people never touch what happens when they "catch" someone. What happens, of course, is that they usually can't do anything about people actually spreading these images, but they can arrest the minors involved and lock them up long term in a terrible system. Of course, that system is horrible and is getting further defunded every year, including 2025. But that is where these children they "help" end up. And they don't care at all. You care about children and victims of child abuse? How about we start with improving the living conditions of the actual known victims? Instead we see regular scandals about the child services system itself abusing children. Rotherham, Romania, child services involvement in Ukraine, Hungary, "toeslagenaffaire", the Netherland's youth services approving foster parents who literally only wanted to torture a young girl (and ignoring her pleas for help), ... Frankly, if that isn't done first, I refuse to believe there is any real intent to help these children.
• delusional 10mo ago
  I can't really connect what you're saying here. I understand that you think drawing loli (I imagine) shouldn't be classified as pedophelia, but what does the law say? Part of living in a society is compromise. I don't believe that certain stretches of road close to my home should have a 50kph speed limit, but when I get a ticket I also accept that I'm in the wrong. If you're of the opinion that drawing children having sex (assuming again) shouldn't be illegal, you should be lobbying/advocating for that position. Changing the compromise. Otherwise you're, like me driving too fast, at the mercy of the justice system. Laws don't require your personal conviction to matter. Sometimes we don't get to do something, even though we personally believe it to be perfectly acceptable.
  • pfortuny 10mo ago
    The problem lies on the wide margin of interpretation those laws give the police. 50kph is a number. "Sexualized drawings of children" is certainly open to discussion.
    • AlecSchueler 10mo ago
      I know it's HN and we love her numbers but legislation that requires interpretation by judge or jury isn't at all unusual. There are also several layers of oversight and courts of appeal in the UK, which are separate from the government.
      • p_l 10mo ago
        For a long time there was push to handle some of that under magistrate courts and other approaches so that to properly defend you have to appeal to actually get in front of proper court. There was at least one case where prosecution never, ever, seen the evidence of supposed CSAM found on accused's computer, and if not for the lucky person having a slightly less overworked public defender, they had high chances of being found "guilty" if of minor offense for having what used to be staple of family photo albums - photo of the toddler grand-kids playing in kiddy pool, which was reported by computer tech at a laptop repair business.
    • 10mo ago
• forty 10mo ago
  If those countries have laws against making and consuming pedophile pictures and drawings (or "artwork"), I feel it's perfectly fine for people making and consuming those to be raided, even if they disagree with the law (if people could opt out of all laws they don't agree with, I'mnot sure what would be the point of making laws). What is not ok is to watch the activities of everyone who is not a pedophile in order to catch those, otherwise when does it stop? Should they have cameras in every room of your home just in case?
  • ranyume 10mo ago
    I read this as "It's perfectly fine to persecute people for their art". And boy, you're on the wrong side of history.
    • forty 10mo ago
      There are all kinds of things you might qualify as "art" which are forbidden in my country (France) - for example if your "art" is about drawing nazi symbols you hopefully are going to have troubles - and I don't have a problem with having pedophile content in that list.
      • ranyume 10mo ago
        Does france really prosecute people for only showing nazi symbols, independent of context? So for example, documentary series are forbidden? To be clear, I still stand by what I said, but I don't think it's fair to equate "pedophile art" with nazi symbology. What I said is meant to be taken as a powerful but general rule that cautions against restricting art (and thus, restricting thought and expression) on the basis of fuzzy logic, hatred towards the content, racism, or any other sort of bias not supported by reality. In this regard, I don't think the logic behind restricting "pedophile art" has the same weight as the logic behind restricting nazi symbology (not even close).
  • deltoidmaximus 10mo ago
    > Should they have cameras in every room of your home just in case? Given that most children are abused by some one they know that might actually be a more effective way to prevent it than whatever they're doing here. I'm sure they'll get to that eventually.
• vbezhenar 10mo ago
  What's the point of criminalising hand-made pictures? I just don't understand it. I could understand the point of criminalising child porn photos, as producing these photos obviously requires violating other laws (actually not obviously, as you can dress adult actors to look like children, but whatever). But things that are obviously drawn without any involvement of real children, what's wrong with them? Just keep them away from general public (honestly any moderation will do that just fine) and weirdos who wants this stuff will find it and discharge their libido in a peaceful way. To me, it looks counter-productive to actual child safety... It's like criminalising porn pictures to protect women? Makes no sense.
  • elestor 10mo ago
    I'd say it makes a lot of sense. It likely encourages pedophilia, meaning people that consume such things will often adopt a wrong idea of what's okay. It's similar to the way that regular porn affects the brain. I understand where you're coming from, though and I get your point, but I feel if someone consumes a lot of media of a certain type, they begin to 'embody' that media. Just don't goon.
    • brabel 10mo ago
      I am not sure there is evidence that this is the case. The argument sounds a lot like those made by conservatives against gay people. Somehow, in their view, homosexuality is also just a first step towards “anything goes”, including incest, pedophilia, even bestiality. Porn, in this view, should increase rape, right? But that’s absolutely not the case. People seem to calm down if they can satisfy themselves with just watching it on a screen, even if it’s not real, as in cartoons or AI generated content. Would you change your opinion if evidence pointed to this being the case, or so you have other motives for still thinking even cartoons should be made illegal if depicting such content?
      • JacWpthrowaway 10mo ago
        > Porn, in this view, should increase rape, right? But that’s absolutely not the case. What evidence do you have that it absolutely doesn't? How would you even scientifically prove this? There are a whole lot of factors that contribute to rape or rape prevention. Does modern sexual objectification and gratification increase the likelyhood that men will seek to actualize their fantasies? I believe it does. From my own experience growing up watching porn from around 11-12 years of age and being an incel, when I was 21 I finally took things into my own hands and went to prostitutes to try and recreate those porn movies I was watching. I did not rape anyone but because of porn I learned that sex should be aggresive, that women respond "positively" to aggresive sex. I was sexually aggresive with the escorts I frequented, because of porn. Over the span of 10+ years of doing this I even noticed shifts in sensibilities of escorts. Like young escorts these days by default gag when doing oral because this is what the market required in the past how many years but wasn't so common 10+ years ago. For the record, in my experience, not even most escorts actually ENJOY aggressive sex. You would think they get used to it but trust me they don't. Aggressive sex is a perversion and I say this from experience not dogma.
• Imustaskforhelp 10mo ago
  Honestly I have been wondering more and more about it but what stops websites from having a bot on signal/(session? although I hate the crypto stuff/ may I recommend matrix/simplex)? Like creating a bot on signal which has its own phone number (and sorry that you got raided) but I am pretty sure that the upload/download of anime artwork websites could be done through signal and the only thing I know about signal is that the one time US govt asked it to share something the only thing it gave was the ip address and when registered and literally nothing else. Signal recently added the abilities of usernames which keep it private and with many other things I think this is a fascinating idea to build upon. I see a lot of telegram bots but honestly signal has a hard time making bots in general because they dont really surface an api itself so people go ahead and all signal's api you see on github use this project which actually has decompiled version of java Signal and proton are two organizations that I trust a lot in our current privacy hostile world and I hope that people who have built bots or have any suggestions/opinion can discuss it in this discussion as parts of the worlds are going towards authoritarianism. Although going further into the thread, my naivety made me realize what sort of anime pictures we are talking about and I don't really support it but still this is being a slippery slope too where as other commenter pointed out, it can be used to get more spying overall on the general public too
  • Hikikomori 10mo ago
    Manga used to be distributed on irc, you would message a bot and it woul initiate a file transfer.
    • Imustaskforhelp 10mo ago
      IRC is such a simple protocol seeing its implementation in <1k loc in many languages and I assume bot building process must be simple too compared to signal. I have built bare minimum hello world bots in simplex and session and I think both had a lot of troubles to go through but if someone's interested, they can look at simplex for bot creation but they started to have client side verification/alert of content which admittedly is a very honeypot-alike activity/slippery slope itself. Signal has some of the least controversies even though its centralized, Matrix is another good one and personally I sort of prefer matrix because all these other protocols require apps whereas matrix can work on top of a browser thus having more widespread adoption imo. XMPP is another good protocol and at this point pardon me for yapping but I once saw someone break a nat using XMPP and using it to create website endpoint creation which was good too but personally I feel like signal is the most trustworthy overall. I wish someone can make signal's bot genuinely simple as telegram bot creation as there is a lot of potential
• miroljub 10mo ago
  "God save the queen, the fascist regime"
• BlueTemplar 10mo ago
  It is concerning to me that there are now international (Western ?) guidelines[1] (2016) and conventions that don't seem to realise the consequences of taking a hard stance on the combination of three of their points : - a child is any person under the age of 18 years - including non-explicit sexual activities - any material that visually depicts a child [engaged in those] Am I missing something, or have they 'criminalised' a quite large chunk of art ?!? [1] https://ecpat.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Terminology-guidelines-396922-EN-1.pdf https://ecpat.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Terminology-gui... Then we have these guidelines embedded in automated systems (sometimes with people as 'cogs'), add a pinch of pressure by puritans in power of various stripes, and a decade later we end up with payment networks forcing platforms to kick out artists even when what they are doing is not illegal in their respective jurisdictions !