4 ms·

Lithium supply is limited. So an alternative based on abundant materials is interesting for that reason I guess?

by Gys 10mo ago

_aavaa_ 10mo ago
Lithium is not that limited, current reserves are based on current exploration. More sources will be found and exploited as demand grows. And if you want an alternative, sodium batteries are already coming online.
- standeven 10mo ago
  It's also very recyclable, so big batteries that reach end of life can contribute back to the lithium supply.
- cogman10 10mo ago
  In fact, the limiting element for Li chemistries is generally the Nickel. Pretty much everything else that goes into these chemistries is highly available. Even something like Cobalt which is touted as unavailable is only that way because the industrial uses of cobalt is basically only li batteries. It's mined by hand not because that's the best way to get it, but because that's the cheapest way to get the small amount that's needed for batteries. Sodium iron phosphate batteries, if Li prices don't continue to fall, will be some of the cheapest batteries out there. If they can be made solid state then you are looking at batteries that will dominate things like grid and home power storage.
  - to11mtm 10mo ago
    > Even something like Cobalt which is touted as unavailable is only that way because the industrial uses of cobalt is basically only li batteries. AFAIR Cobalt is also kinda toxic which is a concern. But as far as that and > In fact, the limiting element for Li chemistries is generally the Nickel Isn't that part of why LiFePO was supposed to take off tho? Sure the energy density is a bit lower but theoretically they are cheaper to produce per kWh and don't have any of the toxicity/rarity issues of other lithium designs...
    - cogman10 10mo ago
      > Isn't that part of why LiFePO was supposed to take off tho? It's the exact reason LFPs are taking off, especially in grid storage scenarios. The high cycle life combined with the fact that all the materials are easy to acquire and dirt cheap.
    - mschuster91 10mo ago
      > Isn't that part of why LiFePO was supposed to take off tho? Sure the energy density is a bit lower but theoretically they are cheaper to produce per kWh and don't have any of the toxicity/rarity issues of other lithium designs... LFP cells have long since taken off. Tesla has been making vehicles with LFP battery packs for half a decade now.
Tade0 10mo ago
There are over 200 billion tonnes of lithium in seawater, it's just the least economical out of all sources of this element. There are plenty more, but they're explored only when there's a price hike.
- cogman10 10mo ago
  AFAIK, the brine pits are pretty economical, they just require ocean access. What I'm somewhat surprised about is that we've not seen synergies with desalination and ocean mineral extraction. IDK why the brine from a desalination plant isn't seen as a prime first step in extraction lithium, magnesium, and other precious minerals from ocean water.
  - adgjlsfhk1 10mo ago
    likely a matter of location. desal tends to be on the coast and near cities which tends to be pretty valuable land, making giant evaporation ponds a tough sell.
    - namibj 10mo ago
      You don't use ponds, you run the desalination to as strong as practical and follow up with either electrolysis or distillation of the brine. But once summer electricity becomes cheap enough due to solar production increasing to handle winter heating loads with the (worse) winter sun, we can afford a lot of electrowinning of "ore" which can be pretty much sea salt or generic rock at that point. Form Energy is working on grid scale iron air batteries which use the same chemistry as would be used for (excess/spare) solar powered iron ore to iron metal refining. AFAIK the coal powered traditional iron refining ovens are the largest individual machines humanity operates. (Because if you try to compare to large (ore/oil) ships, it's not very fair to count their passive cargo volume; and if comparing to offshore oil rigs, and including their ancillary appliances and crew berthing, you'd have to include a lot of surrounding infrastructure to the blast furnace itself.) It will take coal becoming expensive for it's CO2 before we really stop coal fired iron blast furnaces. And before then it's hard to compete even at zero cost electricity when accounting for the duty cycle limitations of only taking curtailed summer peaks.
namibj 10mo ago
We have 10 years of 2021 global energy production (including oil/coal/gas!) of LFP in the oceans; but yes, sodium batteries are probably cheaper.

Lithium supply is limited. So an alternative based on abundant materials is interesting for that reason I guess?

by Gys 10mo ago

Lithium supply is limited. So an alternative based on abundant materials is interesting for that reason I guess?

Lithium is not that limited, current reserves are based on current exploration. More sources will be found and exploited as demand grows. And if you want an alternative, sodium batteries are already coming online.

standeven 10mo ago
It's also very recyclable, so big batteries that reach end of life can contribute back to the lithium supply.
cogman10 10mo ago
In fact, the limiting element for Li chemistries is generally the Nickel. Pretty much everything else that goes into these chemistries is highly available. Even something like Cobalt which is touted as unavailable is only that way because the industrial uses of cobalt is basically only li batteries. It's mined by hand not because that's the best way to get it, but because that's the cheapest way to get the small amount that's needed for batteries. Sodium iron phosphate batteries, if Li prices don't continue to fall, will be some of the cheapest batteries out there. If they can be made solid state then you are looking at batteries that will dominate things like grid and home power storage.
- to11mtm 10mo ago
  > Even something like Cobalt which is touted as unavailable is only that way because the industrial uses of cobalt is basically only li batteries. AFAIR Cobalt is also kinda toxic which is a concern. But as far as that and > In fact, the limiting element for Li chemistries is generally the Nickel Isn't that part of why LiFePO was supposed to take off tho? Sure the energy density is a bit lower but theoretically they are cheaper to produce per kWh and don't have any of the toxicity/rarity issues of other lithium designs...
  - cogman10 10mo ago
    > Isn't that part of why LiFePO was supposed to take off tho? It's the exact reason LFPs are taking off, especially in grid storage scenarios. The high cycle life combined with the fact that all the materials are easy to acquire and dirt cheap.
  - mschuster91 10mo ago
    > Isn't that part of why LiFePO was supposed to take off tho? Sure the energy density is a bit lower but theoretically they are cheaper to produce per kWh and don't have any of the toxicity/rarity issues of other lithium designs... LFP cells have long since taken off. Tesla has been making vehicles with LFP battery packs for half a decade now.

Tade0 10mo ago

There are over 200 billion tonnes of lithium in seawater, it's just the least economical out of all sources of this element. There are plenty more, but they're explored only when there's a price hike.

cogman10 10mo ago
AFAIK, the brine pits are pretty economical, they just require ocean access. What I'm somewhat surprised about is that we've not seen synergies with desalination and ocean mineral extraction. IDK why the brine from a desalination plant isn't seen as a prime first step in extraction lithium, magnesium, and other precious minerals from ocean water.
- adgjlsfhk1 10mo ago
  likely a matter of location. desal tends to be on the coast and near cities which tends to be pretty valuable land, making giant evaporation ponds a tough sell.
  - namibj 10mo ago
    You don't use ponds, you run the desalination to as strong as practical and follow up with either electrolysis or distillation of the brine. But once summer electricity becomes cheap enough due to solar production increasing to handle winter heating loads with the (worse) winter sun, we can afford a lot of electrowinning of "ore" which can be pretty much sea salt or generic rock at that point. Form Energy is working on grid scale iron air batteries which use the same chemistry as would be used for (excess/spare) solar powered iron ore to iron metal refining. AFAIK the coal powered traditional iron refining ovens are the largest individual machines humanity operates. (Because if you try to compare to large (ore/oil) ships, it's not very fair to count their passive cargo volume; and if comparing to offshore oil rigs, and including their ancillary appliances and crew berthing, you'd have to include a lot of surrounding infrastructure to the blast furnace itself.) It will take coal becoming expensive for it's CO2 before we really stop coal fired iron blast furnaces. And before then it's hard to compete even at zero cost electricity when accounting for the duty cycle limitations of only taking curtailed summer peaks.

namibj 10mo ago

We have 10 years of 2021 global energy production (including oil/coal/gas!) of LFP in the oceans; but yes, sodium batteries are probably cheaper.